Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#231

Post by creato » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #160

locallost wrote: post #127

As a foreigner living in Germany I could live with it if there were otherwise sound measures, but it's mostly been a bunch of wishful thinking. There was a rush last summer to open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early and a lot of people really understood it as "corona is over". Even this I could understand, but this year they do the same thing again! Surprise, surprise that there is a…

It is worth remembering the "let people get on with it and they will work out" viewpoint within Europe was widely discredited by April 2020 (and ignoring the fact it worked in countries like Japan that have quite significant constraints on govt power). My conclusion from this is that, in this area, regulations are path dependent. In some countries, people will make the right choices themselves. In others, they won't.…

I think in general, the gap between what regulations say and what people will do anyways will be small (as long as the regulations are more strict than "default" behavior).

At the beginning of the pandemic, where I was, people mostly stopped going to restaurants before regulations said they couldn't. When restrictions have been relaxed, I couldn't really observe any changes in behavior.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#232

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

notjes wrote: post #222

krater23 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is clear now that the vaccines require 3 doses to be effective Looks like you are really a optimist. I would say, 'It's clear now that the vaccines require one dose every 5-6 months to be effective against hard covid symptoms'. Additionally I would not say 'Our governments failed pretty hard in this wave', instead I would say 'Our governments failed hard during the complete pandemic'.

Our governments should have done nothing. People, doctors and clinics would have taken care of this easily. Also, it would be a good community building exercise. But no. Once the Governments stepped in, it was all lockdowns, prohibition and ban of repurpose drugs, soldiers marching through streets, 80 years of ethics preaching tossed out the window in a heart beat.

[deleted]

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#233

Post by jltsiren » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

lbj wrote: post #75

In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.

The vaccination rate in Denmark is less than 80%. The virus does not care that vaccines have not been authorized for kids yet. An unvaccinated person is an unvaccinated person, regardless of whether the reason is bureaucracy or personal choice.

Also, the effective vaccination rate is usually lower than the average rate. Unvaccinated people tend to spend time with other unvaccinated people, and this is particularly true for kids. The people an infected individual encounters are more likely to be unvaccinated than the general population.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#234

Post by jollybean » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

zibzab wrote: post #161

lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Sweden did not keep _everything_ open. We found a sweet spot between "business as usual" and "everybody stays at home". For example, big gatherings and sport events were not allowed. Schools were open only for younger kids.

And by 'Sweet Spot' we mean a materially higher death rate than immediate peers ...

The lockdowns were imminently effective.

In Canada, when we had big waves, we shut things down, the wave faded, we opened up gradually, if another wave hit we cloistered again and the numbers came down.

If you look at 'Our World in Data' graphs you can see any number of 'spikes' for various countries, most of which were handled with lock-downs, which brought numbers down drastically.

Here you go [1]

In almost every case when there is a spike up, there are serious measures put in place, and the spike comes down.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#235

Post by lixtra » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

aarobot wrote: post #151

If you don't wear a life jacket someone else will drown..

Remember the Titanic movie? Girl didn’t take the seat in the live boat. Di Caprio gave her his place on the floating wood - and drowned.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#236

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

boringg wrote: post #192

howinteresting wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortality isn't the only negative outcome.

You should add Mortality + mortality in the following year. Studies coming out that people who survived severe covid had over twice the risk of dying within the next year.

[deleted]

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#237

Post by krater23 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #5

I’m confused. I thought vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why are they not locked down too?

Because a lockdown of all people is more unpopular than a lockdown of unvaccinated people. It's election year...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#238

Post by matsemann » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

zibzab wrote: post #161

lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Sweden did not keep _everything_ open. We found a sweet spot between "business as usual" and "everybody stays at home". For example, big gatherings and sport events were not allowed. Schools were open only for younger kids.

Sweet spot being 3-5x as many deaths as Norway/Denmark/Finland?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#239

Post by vorpalhex » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

cheeze wrote: post #174

_moof wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find any data to support your claim of a higher death rate in Denmark than all of 2020. The data I have show: - Denmark currently experiencing a massive new wave of infections - Previous large wave of infections was last winter, with rate peaking on Dec 18 - Daily deaths peaked one month later at about 8 per 1000 daily infections - Current daily deaths, accounting for lag, is also about 8 per 1000 daily infec…

Yeah, but this is HackerNews. The antivax crowd is strong here. Brandolini's law in full effect in this comment.

Please actually post arguments and not just dismissals. Nobody in this conversation is anti-vaxx, but this fantasy of "If we vaccinate X more, covid will not be a problem" simply does not align with reality. The vaccines are effective, but they are not flawless, and we are dealing with a very high R0 disease that is changing.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#240

Post by Pyramus » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #179

howinteresting wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortality isn't the only negative outcome.

And lockdowns can cause mortality too. In England, the waiting list for operations (these are procedures that a doctor has determined are required medically, some are elective but England doesn't do many electives because of cost) is expected to hit 12m in a few years...the total adult population in England is 56m. Ignoring the economic turmoil that they cause, ignoring the social turmoil. There are no very good choi…

How many people is "extremely large" in your opinion? And who?

Or to put it another way: Would you be okay to go, while we keep everything open? How about your parent, or grand-parent?