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How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

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Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#231

Post by eqvinox »

HMH wrote: post #148
eqvinox wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting the vaccine is also very efficient in preventing hospitalization. By a factor of ≈11 (average, ages 12-17 & 18-59) in the RKI (Germany) data[¹]. So even if you're aged 12 to 29, if you don't get vaccinated you're gambling at taking away someone else's hospital bed. Which will doom the rest of us. So, can everyone please get fricken vaccinated ffs? [¹] https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges…

> So even if you're aged 12 to 29, if you don't get vaccinated you're gambling at taking away someone else's hospital bed. Which will doom the rest of us. According to [1] at no point in time since March this year (when they started recording this data) have there been more than 100 hospitalizations in the age group 0-30 in Germany a country with 80+ million inhabitants. If this means doom to all of us I don't know a…

That's a valid argument, I wasn't aware absolute hospitalization numbers … which just leaves the other arguments to get vaccinated. Namely, lesser chance of long-term symptoms and lesser chance of getting infected (last I checked, outbound transmission doesn't seem to be reduced much, but inbound is, so it still serves to slow overall spread.)

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#232

Post by blindmute »

deanc wrote: post #23
encryptluks2 wrote: post #11

If you change the age group to the youngest possible, there are times where those dying that are vaccinated actually surpasses those that are unvaccinated. The difference is so low though that I don't understand how it would make sense to vaccinate those under 12. I remember at the onset of COVID-19 that they tried so hard to make everyone scared to death (literally) that they would push videos of people dying in the…

Because they spread to the rest of the population. I don’t understand how, two years into the pandemic people are still evaluating whether we should vaccinate people based only off the risk to themselves.

I don't care about the rest of the population; I care about the health of my children. So yes, I am going to evaluate vaccinating a young child based on the risk to them. The child death rate graph is just noise; you can't tell any difference between vaccinated and not. The side effect rate from vaccines graph is, obviously, 0% in the latter group.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#233

Post by verdverm »

roywiggins wrote: post #210
verdverm wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any references to share? That logic would seem to apply to all groups who cohabitate and is orthogonal to my query.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...

Ok,so kids which are more likely to be picked up and held transmit slightly more than other kids.

This sheds no light on my original query which seeks to compare viral loads and transmission rates between unvaccinated kids and vaccinated adults. First, vaccines were not available during the study. Second, it only considered one direction, kids to adults. One would need to do a multi way with more age groups. We know the disease is skewed w.r.t. age.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#234

Post by noxer »

frickinLasers wrote: post #188
lpolovets wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that figure is already three orders of magnitude lower than the 1.6% (772,000) I think the interesting ethical/moral/etc debate is what to do for people who are at lower or negligible risk of dying from COVID in the first place. For example, https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-... suggests that <20k people under 40 have died from covid over 2 years. There might be age groups or demographics…

It seems like it could be a debate worth having. I'd love to see a similar breakdown of vaccine deaths by age (though I don't think there's an official count of confirmed vaccine deaths yet). If a healthy under-40 individual had the same or slightly higher risk of dying from the vaccine as from covid, but a lower risk of passing it to their parents and any elderly person they come into contact with, should they prior…

There is and never will be a definitive "morally right" answer for all situations. Also death is not the only metric people are scared form side effects that may not cause death. They probably should not be but most people simply cant do the research to "know" the real risks. So most people go by what they are told from someone they trust or they do the opposite of what someone they dont trust says (for example the mainstream media).

In the end the only acceptable "morally right" thing to do it to let people decide. This is how it was before covid and this is how it should be after. Will this lead to more death than enforced vaccination for everyone? Yes, it almost certainly will but that should not be the metric. Its an completely "invalid" argument that would never be used for any other similar topic.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#235

Post by Minor49er »

bastardoperator wrote: post #180
Minor49er wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The science and deaths due to the vaccine, or the unvaccinated?

I would say belief systems versus being specific to either or. Being specific, If the number of deaths from covid or the fact that that vaccines have been proven effective for over 100 years aren't enough to sway an individual to get vaccinated I don't think anything will especially a comment on hatebook.

"the fact that that vaccines have been proven effective for over 100 years"

Even in the case of Covid, where people who are vaccinated are still prone to carrying, suffering from, and spreading the disease? I wonder if your sentiment will change after the vaccines pass FDA approval.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#236

Post by sciurus »

mint2 wrote: post #61

This is fine but still overlooks sample bias. I.e older and more susceptible to illness people like 70 year olds are more likely to be vaxxed than 25 year olds. Had the vaccination rate been constant across ages, the unvaccinated death rate would be far higher and the vaccinated death rate far lower. It’s bad stats to not account for the population differences like that one.

This is one of the factors discussed at https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/math-covid-vaccinatio... , which is a nice overview of how innumeracy helps fuel covid misinformation.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#237

Post by bastardoperator »

Minor49er wrote: post #235
bastardoperator wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say belief systems versus being specific to either or. Being specific, If the number of deaths from covid or the fact that that vaccines have been proven effective for over 100 years aren't enough to sway an individual to get vaccinated I don't think anything will especially a comment on hatebook.

"the fact that that vaccines have been proven effective for over 100 years" Even in the case of Covid, where people who are vaccinated are still prone to carrying, suffering from, and spreading the disease? I wonder if your sentiment will change after the vaccines pass FDA approval.

The vaccine I took has already been FDA approved:

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...

Even if my sentiment was to change (it's not, vaccines work), it's not going to be from a comment on a social media website.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#238

Post by chrismcb »

Bud wrote: post #101
steviedotboston wrote: post #32

It really seems like it's safe to say that a fully vaccinated person's risk of dying from covid is low enough where based on the pre-2020 accepted societal standards for risk there should be next to no behavior modification expected.

Sigh. How many times does this have to be explained before everyone gets it? It is not all about you. There are other people in the world. Masks and social distancing protect them, too. In addition, as others have noted in this thread, death is not the only bad result, here. Long covid is horrific, and even milder cases can have permanent health effects that are extremely undesirable.

Do they? Cloth masks aren't very effective and social distancing isn't really going to stop an air borne virus.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#239

Post by sciurus »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #171
sciurus wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaccination ... doesn't protect you from getting infected and infecting others Thankfully, this is wrong on both counts. 1) Vaccinated people are significantly less likely to contract the virus 2) Breakthrough infections are significantly less contagious than infections in nonimmune persons There's a good article diving into this at https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/11/22/most-pern...

> Vaccinated people are significantly less likely to contract the virus Recently vaccinated people are significantly less likely to contract covid than totally naive folks. Efficacy against infection seems to wane pretty heavily over time. > Breakthrough infections are significantly less contagious than infections in nonimmune persons This seems to be in dispute (by a study referenced in your linked article). I think…

It sounds like you agree that "vaccination doesn't protect you from getting infected and infecting others", the statement I was responding to, is wrong.

I think fixating on the limits of vaccination rather then the benefits is misleading. Vaccination works, yet many people think it does not due to this rhetoric.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#240

Post by salamandersauce »

oceanplexian wrote: post #160
DanHulton wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends and family who have had to delay lifesaving medical procedures because hospitals are still swamped and medical personnel are still overworked from dealing with the COVID cases we currently have. Societal standards for risk still need to take into account far, far more than just "Am I, personally, going to die from exactly this one risk factor?"

I agree, however the obvious answer is that society should then build more hospitals and train more nurses, the same way that China did in 2020. Not plunge the economy into debt and force millions of people to change their behavior because of a broken system.

Oh OK. How many years will that take? You can't just staff these new hospitals with just new nurses, you need doctors and other support staff. We have a vaccine now. If everybody just got it when they could we could start to move on without spending millions or billions building new hospitals and paying people to train to become nurses and doctors in half a decade.
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