Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores • Hacker News Board

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#231

Post by otterley » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:02 AM UTC

dilap wrote: post #126

It's strange how so many in the US have adopted the mindset that it's important, for national security, to deny its citizens access to foreign social networks. Previously, when China did the same, this was widely viewed as an unfortunate restriction their freedoms -- the actions of an intrusive, authoritarian government. Now that the US is itself considering doing the same, many in the west have suddenly adopted the…

China censors the Internet to prevent public information from getting in.

The US Government is attempting to restrict the activities of certain Chinese companies to prevent private information from getting out.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#232

Post by 082349872349872 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:05 AM UTC

Drew_ wrote: post #207

MereInterest wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Targeted advertising on the internet as a general practice did not start until the mid to late aughts, long after the internet was a success. Targeted advertising is not a reason for the Internet's success.

The internet in the mid to late aughts is not considered a success by today's standards.

I agree with you, but we probably have different opinions as to which internet should be considered a success :-)

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#233

Post by fuzxi » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:07 AM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #132

devwastaken wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any business with china is a national security issue. There's plenty of evidence to the level of dictatorship in China. It's your responsibility to look at its history and make reasonable conclusions from it. If you want some sort of smoking gun evidence you're not going to find it, unless you somehow have a security clearance in China good enough to gain knowledge about their operations. It's a Chinese company, they…

>It's a Chinese company, they have privledges, not rights. Neither Bytedance nor TikTok are Chinese companies. It's true that Bytedance has buildings in Beijing, and a Chinese app (Taotiao) that is a Chinese subsidiary, but Bytedance is a Cayman's Islands company and TikTok doesn't even have servers inside China. For purposes of the Chinese National Intelligence Law compelling the company to share user information wi…

If it does business in China, then it's beholden to Chinese law at the risk of no longer doing business in China.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#234

Post by Zafira » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:08 AM UTC

localhost wrote: post #20

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western I…

One reason for the United States being seen as a good place to do business is because it is consistent. You don't need to worry about being subjected to the whims of a strongman in order to do business in the US; there is supposed to be a firewall between the business of government and certain political pressures.

Regardless of the risks and challenges increasingly posed by companies that have, at best, murky relationships with the folks in Zhongnanhai, attempting to circumvent this process is an outrageously offensive and damaging to the long-term ability for the US to be able to assert rule of law and democratic processes as the way forward.

One can cynically argue it was always a flimsy patina anyway, but the behavior of, whatever this is at the moment, is disorganized, suffers from shifting reasoning, dubious personal intervention by POTUS, and lacks the due process that we demand of the US government. There has been not a single shred of meaningful evidence presented to the public that TikTok itself is engaged in active spying or intelligence gathering on the part of the Beijing. I would not be surprised if the federal government had evidence that Bytedance is using TikTok for nefarious reasons, but as the saga has dragged on it becomes increasingly unclear what evidence exists. First it had to divest; now it has a "strategic partnership" that's somehow still being sold as a divestiture?

On what basis are we to trust the random proclamations of an executive branch that blatantly and unabashedly lies to the press and the public at-large even over trivial nonsense, declares all unfavorable news as "fake" and suffers endless information leaks from people who have repeatedly been burned by its mercurial cast of characters?

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#235

Post by Dahoon » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:10 AM UTC

warbaker wrote: post #183

howlgarnish wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US companies operating in China need to follow Chinese laws, including those on censorship. Google etc are blocked because they are hosted outside China, and are not willing to cooperate in China. What I find bizarre about the Tiktok ban is that they are being banned essentially on executive whim: as far as I can tell, there are no concrete allegations, much less evidence, that they're violating any US laws.

So, it's ok for China to ban Google because Google refuses to help with censorship and propaganda, and because Google doesn't want the Chinese govt to be able to spy on its citizens. But it's not OK for the US to keep out spyware. Heck, retaliation for China's banning of Google etc would be sufficient justification for banning TikTok on its own.

You cannot say "A" is evil because it does "X", so we will also do "X" and then still claim "A" is evil without saying you are evil yourself.

What you are saying is that unless PRC becomes like the US, the US has to become like PRC. I'm amazed how this is not clear to anyone following this. The only way to go forward and not become what you are pointing fingers at is taking the high road. The US is clearly not doing so.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#236

Post by Dahoon » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:14 AM UTC

jjulius wrote: post #177

bduerst wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bytedance is not owned by the Chinese government. It's an independent company, as is TikTok.

> As with many Chinese companies, the company has an internal Chinese Communist Party committee serving the party members among the employees, with vice president Zhang Fuping serving as its Party Committee Secretary. It also has a strategic partnership with the Ministry of Public Security for the ministry's public relations efforts, and joint ventures with a state-run publisher in Beijing and media firm in Shanghai.…

Wikipedia is not a good source one way or the other.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#237

Post by fuzxi » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:15 AM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #152

soared wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They decide what content is viewed by millions of teens who will be voting in a few years. It’s not that far fetched to show them more violent content / mildly biased content / etc in order to move their political views a bit.

If they successfully do that then isn't that in fact the exact democracy working as it should? If you turn it around, you are endorsing the US government cutting off free speech specifically to manipulate people's voting opinions towards its own perception of what is "good". That seems almost exactly the opposite of the spirit of the constitution. Perhaps an appropriate response here would be to detect this manipulat…

Free speech is a right that applies to citizens, not foreign governments.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#238

Post by 082349872349872 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:20 AM UTC

jerrysievert wrote: post #117

ausjke wrote: post #32

It's a national security issue. Plus, if you sue the government order from any courts in CA, you will win anyways these days. CA is too liberal to remain in US, I remember they were saying CA-Independence from USA after 2016, I can't wait to support it, but those people somehow did not proceed, very disappointed.

great, then California could take Oregon and Washington as well, since they're "anarchist states" and all. New York would likely follow suit. Colorado would probably join with the west coast, leaving Texas to carry most of what was left of the country. Don't mess with Texas, which is to say that they don't want to be the ones paying for everything. Now we have 3 countries that can feed themselves, pay for what they n…

> with coastal access

At a finer grain, looking at the top 20 CSAs[1], many are non-coastal, but to my guesstimates only 20% are not on a navigable river:

     7 8'000'000 Dallas-Forth Worth
    11 6'900'000 Atlanta–Athens-Clarke County–Sandy Springs (160 km to Columbus)
    13 5'000'000 Phoenix-Mesa
    17 3'600'000 Denver-Aurora

(Boston-Worcester-Providence is almost as large as my entire country, and has far better water transport options.)

> ... and we have what's left of the United States. Not a great scenario if you follow it to its conclusion

Why not? While "Civilian aircraft and aircraft engines" probably takes a hit, the remaining US should continue to have its major exports:

    1 Food, beverage and feed: $133 billion. Soybeans were the number one product in this category, with sales of $22 billion, followed by meat and poultry at $18 billion.
    2 Crude oil, fuel and other petroleum products: $109 billion.

(and I'm pretty sure all three of those categories are things the chinese are currently importing?)

[1] by population. Anyone have a source for GDP? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

[2] https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/07/news/economy/top-us-exports... (2017, anything more recent?)

Colorado I wouldn't believe: unlike the west coast, they're tied into the national pipeline network. (On the gripping hand, it, like many other states, is on the western electrical grid.)

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#239

Post by stjohnswarts » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

ausjke wrote: post #32

It's a national security issue. Plus, if you sue the government order from any courts in CA, you will win anyways these days. CA is too liberal to remain in US, I remember they were saying CA-Independence from USA after 2016, I can't wait to support it, but those people somehow did not proceed, very disappointed.

California can't leave the USA, some states tried that before and it didn't turn out too well for them.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#240

Post by Dahoon » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:24 AM UTC

hatenberg wrote: post #111

localhost wrote: post #20

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western I…

Or we could look at history and accepr that the US changes the rules whenever it is eclipsed or finds itself outdone at its own game. See Japan 1980s Nah, the ideology is manufactured - we were just fine doing business with them and we keep being just fine doing business with the Saudis or any number of ideologically 'opposed countries.

Exactly. This is like when tax was put on foreign motorcycles to protect Harley Davidson because it clearly was an inferior product that could not live on customer demand alone against Japanese products. I own one of the products that came out of this debacle[1] which might be the reason I still remember this unlike most who seem to believe this is a new way to do things in the US.

1: https://bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_kz_700-a1_1984.php