Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#231

Post by avip » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:20 AM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #224

avip wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did not address anything OP raised. Maybe read this https://www.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-criticism/ (it's short, concise and relevant) and try to articulate your stance here - who should have the authority to take these subjective moral decisions? [edit: sorry it's not short at all, but self-repeating so just read a few and you're done]

I reread everything from OP, and everything from my post, and think I addressed it well enough. Both OP and many of the critics of Cloudflare are casting around, like the philosophical equivalent of a dog with a bucket on its head, hoping that the uninteresting question of "is there some magic neutral principle that will allow us to operate from day to day without making subjective moral decisions" (narrator: "there…

The narrative CloudFlares' CEO used is:

>"is it the right place for tech companies to be regulating the Internet... what I know is not the right answer is that a cabal of ten tech executives with names like Matthew, Mark, Jack, ... Jeff are the ones choosing what content goes online and what content doesn't go online."

I'm not sure the dog-in-a-bucket analogy holds. He has a moral stance, but he's not sure he should be exercising it.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#232

Post by SmellyGeekBoy » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:21 AM UTC

mk89 wrote: post #185

thanatos_dem wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent poster’s point is that that’s a very western perspective of morality. Imagine if the tables were turned, and the apprent promiscuity promoted by apps like Tinder was deemed immoral by a country that’s more conservative. Should that app be pulled globally as a result? To them the fact that we allow so much casually dating could be (and in middle eastern cultures often is) viewed as “wrong”.

I understand completely the parent's point of view, because I am confronted with hundreds of people like that on a daily basis. To be honest? I am tired of justifying insanity, despite the legal point of view, and despite the fact that tables are not turned. I am not a lawyer and I am not sitting at a round table, and I have opinions. And my opinion is that due to this "oh, by law, or by religion" we are throwing awa…

> Thankfully I live in a country that treats everyone with respect.

I'm intrigued as to which country this is... How are immigrants treated in your country? People working minimum wage jobs? Transsexuals?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#233

Post by krapp » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:31 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #168

50656E6973 wrote: post #14

Its alarming how these increasingly powerful and consolidated silicon valley groups preach progressive morality but practice regressive totalitarianism.

So basically, you are saying that radical feminist activists are right?

Why "radical feminist activists" as opposed to just "feminists?"

Objecting to companies only embracing progressive or feminist ideals publicly for the sake of PR or marketing while not actually taking any risks within their own culture isn't exactly radical.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#234

Post by JackPoach » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:33 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #230

JackPoach wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, in other words, you are willing to ask Apple and Google to proactively police their apps, if they are designed to prevent freedoms on not. You'll probably need to ban any app related to Koran or Bible, because they condemn certain types of sexual preferences. Anything Catholic, Mormon, Scientology, got to go. So, when do you stop? How about apps used by Pentagon (Pentagon kills people)? Or banking apps that charg…

There is no thin line between app with catholic content or Koran and app that notifies male guardian of a women who is trying to cross the border. Nor between bank app that pays on poor. This app is not preying on vulnerable women trying to convince them to go back. There is also difference between policing apps that are designed "designed to prevent freedoms or not" and between policing apps that do in fact prevent…

OK, let's take this argument even further. Suppose you are right. But the Saudis don't just discriminate against women. They also do against Jews, Shia and Christians. They also arranged genocide in Yemen. They've also sponsored atrocities in Syria. The list is long, really long. Clearly, Google is involved in KSA not only via the Google Play marketplace. It's quite likely that the government of KSA uses other Google products in its work. Microsoft as well. And I won't even go into the military industrial complex. Why stop with this app? There's rampant discrimination in KSA in the oil industry, for example. Are US companies involved in this industry in KSA complicit? Should they be prevented from working in KSA? Again, I just don't see how you can draw a line. You either have to take hands off approach or you need to totally embargo KSA, none of which seems satisfactory.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#235

Post by mikejb » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:38 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #151

romwell wrote: post #122

There's a lot of discussion here, but I don't see the important question being asked: How (and whether) the removal of this app will help the women in Saudi Arabia: 1)In the short term 2)In the long term I.e. if the alternative to using the tracking app is not being able to travel (in the realities of that horrible state), then removal will make life of many women worse in the short term. Calls for bans and removals…

The logic here is very, very simple: You don't help bad people do bad things. Period. End of discussion. If they still do it without your help, that's unfortunate; and yes, you should probably do something to stop it. But if they do it with your help, then you are directly responsible for it, and the rest of us have a moral obligation to hold you responsible.

> You don't help bad people do bad things. Period. End of discussion.

How many ties will those companies have to cut then in the US?

Reacting to complex situations with simple solutions will result in unexpected and unintended consequences.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#236

Post by zimpenfish » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:43 AM UTC

tokyodude wrote: post #217

stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

I think Google should yank the app. I think Apple should be forced to carry the app or open their platform. Android users can install whatever they want. Apple should not be in a position to prevent iPhone users from doing the same. To me if BMW said "You can buy this car but you're not allowed to drive to to Compton Los Angeles". The answer should not be "If you want to drive to Compton buy some other brand". It sho…

> I think Apple should be forced to carry the app > I get that Apple shouldn't be forced to carry those apps

This is a confusing stance.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#237

Post by posterboy » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:44 AM UTC

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

For servers based in the USA or for crimes such as slavery facilitated by entities from the USA, yes USAmerican moral is the guidance.

It's difficult to keep up segregation in a world growing together. I mean segregation of morals, though quite ironically the ambiguity works swell.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#238

Post by cimmanom » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:48 AM UTC

cazum wrote: post #49

pault wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the repression of women in SA but I didn't realize they weren't even allowed to leave the country. The addition of real time tracking technology just makes it that much more horrifying. Imagine being a woman trying to escape domestic abuse and being returned to your abuser when you try to flee.

At risk of going well off topic here: The exact situation that you described happens a lot closer to home than you may think.

But without government-sanctioned apps to track the victims and prevent their escape.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#239

Post by rsynnott » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 10:52 AM UTC

S_A_P wrote: post #55

I don’t agree with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia’s stances, but I also feel like keeping a list of each state that violates human rights is not in Tim Cook’s or Sundar Pichai’s job description. If we are just being honest with ourselves the list of countries in which you can do business approaches 0 if we call out the violators. Secondly, the last time I checked a company’s mandate is to abide by the laws of the countr…

This isn't a case of keeping a list of abusive states, it's a case of hosting an app which is literally part of the mechanism by which an abusive state abuses people.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#240

Post by xyzzy123 » Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 11:03 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #158

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

Ouch. There’s been a lot to think about over the course of this thread.

I think South Africa is a good example because there were wide ranging trade sanctions against them during Apartheid which could have supported actions such as yanking government apps as a matter of international agreement.

Overall though I don’t think it’s a good idea for FAANG companies to unilaterally wade into foreign policy or cultural influence even more than they already do.

Other commenters have made some good points that the platforms are already very not neutral, pointing to adult apps and arbitrary TOS violations as app store death penalty.

I agree that this is true but I remain broadly opposed to the idea that we must stop others from running code that we don’t like. Overall it doesn’t seem like the right mechanism to do politics.