Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 345 posts

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#171

Post by [deleted] »

int_19h wrote: post #144
NoblePublius wrote: post #23

I can’t believe that Lyft doesn’t cover the Bay Area with billboards that say “Saudi Arabia beats women and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia murders gay people and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia crucified two people last year and owns 10% of Uber.”

What we really need with respect to Saudi Arabia is a popular campaign similar to the one that was directed at South Africa in 1980s. Boycott everything they have a stake in. Push your government to embargo everything they buy or sell. They're in a much weaker position than SAR, too, in terms of what they need to import, so it'd be much more effective.

[deleted]

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#172

Post by tathougies »

stickfigure wrote: post #158
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

The issue with such an app is not the fact that it is being hosted but rather the fact it was created. Going after amazon will not change the fact that the Sauds think this app is moral. In fact it only distracts from the issue. Amazon is a company and wants profit. Saudi arabia is a sovereign country, which means it is the only entity involved that can truly enforce its morality. That anyone would think to first criticize Amazon is somewhat ridiculous in this context

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#173

Post by thanatos_dem »

mk89 wrote: post #169
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

>Under Saudi law, every woman has a legal "guardian" who can restrict her travel to specific airports and routes, and get automated alerts when they cross borders. What neutral argument do you really wish to have? The fact that their legal system is messed up won't make me say "oh, but by law you are not allowed...".

I think the parent poster’s point is that that’s a very western perspective of morality. Imagine if the tables were turned, and the apprent promiscuity promoted by apps like Tinder was deemed immoral by a country that’s more conservative. Should that app be pulled globally as a result?

To them the fact that we allow so much casually dating could be (and in middle eastern cultures often is) viewed as “wrong”.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#174

Post by AlexandrB »

_bxg1 wrote: post #113
justaguyhere wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an ideal world, it would be nice if we (governments, individuals, businesses etc) didn't support oppressive regimes and other bad actors. But would we though? Take Amazon - we know that they are almost as bad as Walmart on a host of issues, but how many of us would give up the convenience of one click shopping? It would be inconvenient, sure, but it is much easier for an individual to stop shopping at Amazon than…

Be the change you wish to see in the world. Smartphones are now essential, so you can't completely avoid doing business with at least Google xor Apple, but you can absolutely give up one-click shopping. I've never used it. I've never had Amazon Prime. It's been multiple years since I last bought anything at all on Amazon. I've used Uber less than five times (and Lyft none), and the last time was over three years ago.…

> Smartphones are now essential, so you can't completely avoid doing business with at least Google xor Apple...

What? Why?

Smartphones are convenient, but essential? Phone calls and SMS/MMS still work without a smartphone.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#175

Post by mschuster91 »

int_19h wrote: post #149
S_A_P wrote: post #55

I don’t agree with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia’s stances, but I also feel like keeping a list of each state that violates human rights is not in Tim Cook’s or Sundar Pichai’s job description. If we are just being honest with ourselves the list of countries in which you can do business approaches 0 if we call out the violators. Secondly, the last time I checked a company’s mandate is to abide by the laws of the countr…

Sure. So let's pass laws and slap some serious sanctions on KSA. If there is a country that deserves them, it's this one.

The problem is that sanctions have to be enforced, and the current US government is... severely lacking in that aspect: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-28/the-trump...

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#176

Post by fipple »

tathougies wrote: post #172
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

The issue with such an app is not the fact that it is being hosted but rather the fact it was created. Going after amazon will not change the fact that the Sauds think this app is moral. In fact it only distracts from the issue. Amazon is a company and wants profit. Saudi arabia is a sovereign country, which means it is the only entity involved that can truly enforce its morality. That anyone would think to first cri…

It’s not that Amazon is primarily culpable, it is that a person in the US has more leverage, however minimal, over Amazon than over the Saudi king.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#177

Post by lostlogin »

tathougies wrote: post #172
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

The issue with such an app is not the fact that it is being hosted but rather the fact it was created. Going after amazon will not change the fact that the Sauds think this app is moral. In fact it only distracts from the issue. Amazon is a company and wants profit. Saudi arabia is a sovereign country, which means it is the only entity involved that can truly enforce its morality. That anyone would think to first cri…

What do you think of companies that used slave labour legally or use child labour legally? They want profit, and it’s legal. Does that make it ok?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#178

Post by mschuster91 »

toofy wrote: post #52
ng12 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Plausible deniability is maintained but the facts are the same. We, as a society, need to move away from the silly idea that companies should be moral judicators.

If we’re going to continue to allow these companies to enjoy as much power, money, and influence as entire nations, why wouldn’t we expect them to be moral leaders? From my perspective it would seem they are precisely the kind of people we want pushing for basic human rights.

> If we’re going to continue to allow these companies to enjoy as much power, money, and influence as entire nations

FAANG have more money than entire nations' GDP or outstanding debt. Apple with its 250B cash reserve could buy over half of Greece's outstanding debt.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#179

Post by megaremote »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

We have to have a line somewhere. Google and Apple aren't IBM helping the Nazi's.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#180

Post by Santosh83 »

_bxg1 wrote: post #113
justaguyhere wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an ideal world, it would be nice if we (governments, individuals, businesses etc) didn't support oppressive regimes and other bad actors. But would we though? Take Amazon - we know that they are almost as bad as Walmart on a host of issues, but how many of us would give up the convenience of one click shopping? It would be inconvenient, sure, but it is much easier for an individual to stop shopping at Amazon than…

Be the change you wish to see in the world. Smartphones are now essential, so you can't completely avoid doing business with at least Google xor Apple, but you can absolutely give up one-click shopping. I've never used it. I've never had Amazon Prime. It's been multiple years since I last bought anything at all on Amazon. I've used Uber less than five times (and Lyft none), and the last time was over three years ago.…

Exactly. We seem to forget that our parents lived just fine and even happily without most of these instant-gratification and convenience services. It is possible, if we try.
Post reply on HN