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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

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221–230 of 345 posts

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Saudis don't like it, they can roll their own, without our assistance, and without us profiting from any of it. Be careful what you wish for. They have the money to do it. Cornering a market isn't that hard if you're doing it for strategic reasons rather than to turn a profit. And then what? We have to petition the Saudis to approve our apps? Maybe it would be better if we didn't have a central party that contro…

It would be, but the walled gardens that we have are not propped up by any legislation, so they're creations of the market. Enough people like them that they keep running. Thus, to prevent them, you will need regulation - which stops at the border. Saudi government will have their own, and you can be sure that it'll be the kind that enables what they want to do. On the other hand, we can boycott and embargo them. Muc…

> It would be, but the walled gardens that we have are not propped up by any legislation, so they're creations of the market. Enough people like them that they keep running.

That would be an argument if people were given the independent choice, but the choice is tied to the phone you buy. It's not much of a choice if both of the major platforms are tied to a walled garden and the alternatives are esoteric enough that most people aren't even aware they exist.

And it is regulation keeping them that way. Third parties would sell iPhones modified to add competing app stores if there weren't laws preventing it. To say nothing of the lack of antitrust enforcement as yet -- markets don't work when there is insufficient competition.

> On the other hand, we can boycott and embargo them. Much good that money will do them if nobody will touch it, or if the products developed with it are banned from most well-paying markets.

Then they would reciprocate, oil prices would skyrocket and the dollar would fail as the reserve currency, both because of the oil market and because other countries wouldn't want to accept it if US foreign policy becomes to seize them back from a country where they were used to make trillions in purchases over decades.

You could say "and we could nuke them" with about the same probability of that actually happening.

And what would you even use to justify it, while we continue to do business with China and a dozen other countries with similarly problematic records?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Nobody owes the Saudis a publishing platform to push their app. If they want to fully self host it on servers within the geographical borders of the kingdom, they can. Good luck getting it to install on the majority of non-rooted iOS and Android devices. I would encourage anyone running any 'cloud' based services for the Saudi government to discontinue serving them as soon as possible. This runs the gam…

Nobody owes you anything either. I don't like your opinion. Your internet access will be cut tomorrow. Apple and Google ban you from using their phones. You are welcome to create, manage and host your own infrastructure though. Good luck! Oh wait, most of the AS around you also prefer not to route your traffic. And your domain? Nah, DNS is also at their providers' whim and you are on a very popular blacklist.

Current evidence shows that the AS that I run backbone engineering for have hundreds of peers at some of the world's largest IX points, and a number of highly reliable upstream transits. I get the point of your comment, but the reason why my AS is not shunned by the global Internet community is that we're responsible citizens. Unlike some other ISPs that I won't bother naming.

Now, the bar to being a halfway decent and ethical ISP is not really so high these days. You have to actually go to extra effort and make things intentionally more complicated to fuck with your customers' traffic.

In North America, at least, part of that includes not censoring content and not even contemplating doing something like the Saudis do. I can guarantee you that if the C-level executives at my company were asked to implement something that was grossly in violation of the US constitution/bill or rights, Canadian charter of rights and freedoms, or similar concepts upholding the rule of law, they would refuse.

I feel for the people who run telecom and ISPs in Saudi Arabia, who need to implement technical solutions at the whim of a corrupt hereditary monarchy.

I debated whether it was even worth my time to write this comment, since your argument is weak and theoretical. Reality is that major ISPs don't cut each other off for arbitrary reasons. But I'd bet $5 you're not involved in the practical day to day logistics of things like establishing 100GbE PNIs between major ASes.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#223
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand completely the parent's point of view, because I am confronted with hundreds of people like that on a daily basis. To be honest? I am tired of justifying insanity, despite the legal point of view, and despite the fact that tables are not turned. I am not a lawyer and I am not sitting at a round table, and I have opinions. And my opinion is that due to this "oh, by law, or by religion" we are throwing awa…

When you are employed by a company, you are treated 'like a car to rent', yet nobody seems to have an issue with it. At some point in the future, people will look back at this time and consider it immoral that companies could rent people by the hour. Likewise, people in many non-western cultures do not have any issue with having a guardian 'look after' you, in return for a payment to your family. If the people don't…

Sorry, I miss completely the point.

> At some point in the future

Morality changes, opinions too, and laws too. What then? Should we legalize pedophiles so that we can claim we are an open society and future-proof?

> When you are employed by a company, you are treated 'like a car to rent', yet nobody seems to have an issue with it.

That's work, that's life - if that goes against human rights, yes, I agree, I wish I was rich without doing s*. :)

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#224
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a typical argument from 'neutral principles'.In this kind of thinking, the notion of 'being fair to everyone in a principled fashion that is easily and mechanistically describable' is more important than say, the notion of 'not oppressing women, even if the Saudis think it's OK'. This is itself a value judgement and comes down to your opinion. Like the old joke about turtles, it's opinions all the way down. I…

You did not address anything OP raised. Maybe read this https://www.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-criticism/ (it's short, concise and relevant) and try to articulate your stance here - who should have the authority to take these subjective moral decisions? [edit: sorry it's not short at all, but self-repeating so just read a few and you're done]

I reread everything from OP, and everything from my post, and think I addressed it well enough. Both OP and many of the critics of Cloudflare are casting around, like the philosophical equivalent of a dog with a bucket on its head, hoping that the uninteresting question of "is there some magic neutral principle that will allow us to operate from day to day without making subjective moral decisions" (narrator: "there isn't") will be conveniently resolved with some appeal to local law, free speech absolutism, slippery slope fallacies, catchy Latin slogans, etc.

My stance here is that everyone has to make these subjective moral decisions all the time and that the hope that we can pull a neutral principle out of our ass and Resolve Everything is itself a moral decision and not exempt from moral criticism. It's just yet another value judgement: specifically in the Cloudflare case, it's that "the abstract neutral principle of free speech and the idea that companies shouldn't interfere with who they host" is more important than "maybe we shouldn't let those assholes from the Daily Stormer go about their business with impunity". I'm OK with you believing that if you want to, but it's just as much of a subjective moral decision to prioritize a quest for neutral principle over making your own ad hoc moral decisions (which you will wind up doing anyhow).

In short, it's subjectivity all the way down, so you may as well 'fight your corner'.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#225

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

We have to have a line somewhere. Google and Apple aren't IBM helping the Nazi's.

IBM had the Nazis as a client, while the modern companies have the Saudis as investors. The power structure is inverted.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#226
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand completely the parent's point of view, because I am confronted with hundreds of people like that on a daily basis. To be honest? I am tired of justifying insanity, despite the legal point of view, and despite the fact that tables are not turned. I am not a lawyer and I am not sitting at a round table, and I have opinions. And my opinion is that due to this "oh, by law, or by religion" we are throwing awa…

When you are employed by a company, you are treated 'like a car to rent', yet nobody seems to have an issue with it. At some point in the future, people will look back at this time and consider it immoral that companies could rent people by the hour. Likewise, people in many non-western cultures do not have any issue with having a guardian 'look after' you, in return for a payment to your family. If the people don't…

> When you are employed by a company, you are treated 'like a car to rent', yet nobody seems to have an issue with it.

Yeah, you can quit whenever you want. It's not like you were born into your company and have no other choice but to go there every day of your life.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#227
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Tim Cook not realize Saudi Arabia executed homosexuals before he shook his hand? Can he really feign ignornance?

I believe at the time there was an optimism that MBS would be a positive for change. Remember the optimism around when he announced the changes to allow women to drive...

They arrested activists campaigning for women's right to drive days before that. The optimism was propaganda from the start.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. So let's pass laws and slap some serious sanctions on KSA. If there is a country that deserves them, it's this one.

The problem is that sanctions have to be enforced, and the current US government is... severely lacking in that aspect: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-28/the-trump...

Seems to be working for Venezuela, my local embassy got their accounts frozen on a local bank.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#229

I'm loosing touch here, why is this not a manufactured controversy and instead an actual complaint that has any merit? Why aren't we "accusing" ISPs from routing to the website? "Accusing" wayback machine of caching it? "Accusing" CDNs of not null-routing it? so this article gets to masquerade Apple and Google's power consolidation as a good thing and you guys eat it up? I'm going to call my publicist and start my ow…

The web is an open platform. Apple and Google have a walled garden, they are responsible for what they provide.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#230
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But ... the app is designed to prevent the freedom. The function of notifying is literally for the purpose of stopping women who don't want to live like that by people who force them to live in the "dark ages".

So, in other words, you are willing to ask Apple and Google to proactively police their apps, if they are designed to prevent freedoms on not. You'll probably need to ban any app related to Koran or Bible, because they condemn certain types of sexual preferences. Anything Catholic, Mormon, Scientology, got to go. So, when do you stop? How about apps used by Pentagon (Pentagon kills people)? Or banking apps that charg…

There is no thin line between app with catholic content or Koran and app that notifies male guardian of a women who is trying to cross the border. Nor between bank app that pays on poor. This app is not preying on vulnerable women trying to convince them to go back. There is also difference between policing apps that are designed "designed to prevent freedoms or not" and between policing apps that do in fact prevent basic freedoms.

This app is sending message to another person so that he can stop physically stop her and punish her. You can choose to ignore bank app and bible. You cant choose to ignore saudi police coming for you, because male guardian was notified.

But for that matter, sexual content is already heavily policed. It is not like the app stores ever claimed to be anything goes zones.

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