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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#211

Post by mscasts »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

They already block porn because it's sensitive in the US. Games where you shoot people in the head or drive people over is okay though. I can't see how this differs.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#212

Post by jabberthemutt »

walrus01 wrote: post #106
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Counterpoint: Nobody owes the Saudis a publishing platform to push their app. If they want to fully self host it on servers within the geographical borders of the kingdom, they can. Good luck getting it to install on the majority of non-rooted iOS and Android devices. I would encourage anyone running any 'cloud' based services for the Saudi government to discontinue serving them as soon as possible. This runs the gam…

Nobody owes you anything either. I don't like your opinion. Your internet access will be cut tomorrow. Apple and Google ban you from using their phones. You are welcome to create, manage and host your own infrastructure though. Good luck!

Oh wait, most of the AS around you also prefer not to route your traffic. And your domain? Nah, DNS is also at their providers' whim and you are on a very popular blacklist.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#213

Post by glangdale »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

This is a typical argument from 'neutral principles'.In this kind of thinking, the notion of 'being fair to everyone in a principled fashion that is easily and mechanistically describable' is more important than say, the notion of 'not oppressing women, even if the Saudis think it's OK'.

This is itself a value judgement and comes down to your opinion. Like the old joke about turtles, it's opinions all the way down.

It's also fairly obviously absurd; there are countries where public opinion and even the legal system are pretty much OK with rounding up gays and beating them up, or worse. You have to have a pretty hefty commitment to neutral principles to think that Apple and Google should be OK with the "Let's Beat Up a Batty Boy" app because it's OK in some country...

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#214

Post by kortilla »

FuckOffNeemo wrote: post #66
nl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thatoneyouthrow got flagged for his personal attacks on people. The quote "None of these men care about women or LGBT unless it's legally enforced." is clearly untrue, and simply doesn't address what is a multi-faceted issue. It's worth noting that if citizens of the US are concerned about this, then the citizens have the power - via government - to fix this by imposing trade sanctions.

For the sake of argument here, consider a different perspective. Can the voting US public really make a difference to foreign policy with the UAE\Saudi Arabia? === There's a grey area that's worthy of discussion, but we the voting public and as voters for democratically elected governments have cracked the shits with governments and international businesses for much less than what Saudi Arabia have done as a hostile,…

>Yet... a strong portion of the public still want it built. And it will be at the expense of schools, public health, infrastructure, disaster relief.

You are drinking up propaganda if you believe this to be true in the slightest. The US extremely rarely has a balanced budget and there is always room for politicians to take on more debt for their projects.

The entire position of AOC at this point is to give up the facade of government brining in revenue to pay for any proposals. All questions about payment are answered with whataboutism pointing at a different unfunded liability.

Neither party cares about balanced budgets. The wall, tax cuts, the green new deal, whatever do not take away funding from other programs because the federal government no longer fundamentally operates that way.

Funding is only cut for political gamesmanship at this point.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#215

Post by terminus »

Pristina wrote: post #161
terminus wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we enforce some morals and not others in our app stores, who exactly do we choose as the arbiters of morality? U.S. public opinion? Chinese public opinion? Maybe the U.N? I agree that not every situation is this easy to decide but this one -- women as chattel -- seems rather staightforward. Corporations claim free speech rights (via corporate personhood) all the time. Not using those rights in this case seems to…

>seems rather staightforward. So your entire argument is based on your personal subjective valuation that it is straightforward. The idea that a homosexual should be thrown from a bridge onto an oncoming train is as straightforward to a good many people as this is to you. What you are invoking here is really 'US public opinion' or its related 'western world public opinion' circa. 2019. If this is basically all the su…

Are you seriously saying that there are two sides to the whether women are chattel or not?

What's funny is that your specious analogies try to equate this argument -- for more freedom for the Saudi women -- to others where people's freedoms are being restricted.

Might I suggest you have another go at remedial logic.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#216

Post by londons_explore »

mk89 wrote: post #185
thanatos_dem wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent poster’s point is that that’s a very western perspective of morality. Imagine if the tables were turned, and the apprent promiscuity promoted by apps like Tinder was deemed immoral by a country that’s more conservative. Should that app be pulled globally as a result? To them the fact that we allow so much casually dating could be (and in middle eastern cultures often is) viewed as “wrong”.

I understand completely the parent's point of view, because I am confronted with hundreds of people like that on a daily basis. To be honest? I am tired of justifying insanity, despite the legal point of view, and despite the fact that tables are not turned. I am not a lawyer and I am not sitting at a round table, and I have opinions. And my opinion is that due to this "oh, by law, or by religion" we are throwing awa…

When you are employed by a company, you are treated 'like a car to rent', yet nobody seems to have an issue with it.

At some point in the future, people will look back at this time and consider it immoral that companies could rent people by the hour.

Likewise, people in many non-western cultures do not have any issue with having a guardian 'look after' you, in return for a payment to your family.

If the people don't see an issue with it, why should some foreign company come in and decide to ban it?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#217

Post by tokyodude »

stickfigure wrote: post #158
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

I think Google should yank the app. I think Apple should be forced to carry the app or open their platform. Android users can install whatever they want. Apple should not be in a position to prevent iPhone users from doing the same.

To me if BMW said "You can buy this car but you're not allowed to drive to to Compton Los Angeles". The answer should not be "If you want to drive to Compton buy some other brand". It should be "Those terms are Illegal"

Unlike Google, Apple claims total dominion over what apps you can run on your iOS device. They have that control over 1.3 billion devices. That the largest amount of censorship control ever in the hands of few people. Political apps are blocked. Sex positive porn apps are blocked. I get that Apple shouldn't be forced to carry those apps on their store but until they provide alternatives I think they're in the wrong.

People generally respond to this they want Apple to censor their apps. That's not an argument for not opening the platform. You are always free to install only Apple approved apps regardless of if the platform is open or not.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#218

Post by avip »

glangdale wrote: post #213
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

This is a typical argument from 'neutral principles'.In this kind of thinking, the notion of 'being fair to everyone in a principled fashion that is easily and mechanistically describable' is more important than say, the notion of 'not oppressing women, even if the Saudis think it's OK'. This is itself a value judgement and comes down to your opinion. Like the old joke about turtles, it's opinions all the way down. I…

You did not address anything OP raised. Maybe read this https://www.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-criticism/ (it's short, concise and relevant) and try to articulate your stance here - who should have the authority to take these subjective moral decisions?

[edit: sorry it's not short at all, but self-repeating so just read a few and you're done]

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#219

Post by glangdale »

thanatos_dem wrote: post #173
mk89 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Under Saudi law, every woman has a legal "guardian" who can restrict her travel to specific airports and routes, and get automated alerts when they cross borders. What neutral argument do you really wish to have? The fact that their legal system is messed up won't make me say "oh, but by law you are not allowed...".

I think the parent poster’s point is that that’s a very western perspective of morality. Imagine if the tables were turned, and the apprent promiscuity promoted by apps like Tinder was deemed immoral by a country that’s more conservative. Should that app be pulled globally as a result? To them the fact that we allow so much casually dating could be (and in middle eastern cultures often is) viewed as “wrong”.

Well, I guess that we won't get to use all that great Saudi tech then. What a shame.

In the end it comes down to the fact that Western countries have the app stores. Enthusiasts for various middle-brow airport Big Ideas books can probably advance about a million different theories (many even plausible) that explain why these companies wind up being from California and not Saudi Arabia or Uganda.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're busy promulgating the morals of Saudi Arabia, while ensconced comfortably in California, you've got it coming when your friends and neighbours start pissing on your shoes. Tech companies make decisions all the time about apps that go well beyond the strict letter of the law in countries in which they operate (Exhibit A: adult content).

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#220

Post by colechristensen »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Taking down "blasphemous" content is immoral. More generally, allowing religiously-based morals to restrict the freedoms of those who aren't willing participants is immoral.

Building and distributing or in any way being involved in the technology to track women in SA makes you directly responsible for the abuse that happens as a result.

Technology companies have a responsibility that comes with the power they enable, true it is very difficult to exercise properly, but in some cases it is very clear what is right and wrong.

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