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Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#231

Post by killin_dan »

baddox wrote: post #97
nikofeyn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

> then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? Does everyone do that? I think I very rarely do. When I need to convey an idea on a whiteboard, it's still almost completely text, with a few extra symbols like directional arrows that I think are still effectively just symbolic written language. Literally the only time I can remember sketching a picture to convey an idea is while playing Pictio…

Godel, Escher, Bach covers this in great detail. Symbols are a weird idea in the human brain, and there are multiple pseudo languages throughout the book that when you really sit down and think about it, aren't any less ridiculous than the notation we use for mathematics outside of that book.

My idea-book (is that a crazy person thing?) is probably a lot like what you're talking about. I use words for my main data, different arrows going in between each sub-idea, and then sometimes more words attached to each arrow ("pub/subs", "queries", "happens once/happens always", etc)

I think that people who think visual programming could be a thing ought to sit down with APL for a few weekends, until they have the epiphany of "oh, the code is the same as the notation for what I'm actually doing" and suddenly they realize that notation and code are interlinked, and each are basically useless without the other, in the same sort of way that x--p--p---- is exactly as valid as 2 + 2 = 4, without context.

I get the allure of NOT having to write code, but it shouldn't be so difficult for people to realize that it's a ridiculous fantasy.

Write fibonacci(N) in ANY visual language, and tell me you couldn't have done it easier, faster, and more coherently in python or whatever. It's obvious.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#232

Post by killin_dan »

gregmac wrote: post #205
baddox wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? Does everyone do that? I think I very rarely do. When I need to convey an idea on a whiteboard, it's still almost completely text, with a few extra symbols like directional arrows that I think are still effectively just symbolic written language. Literally the only time I can remember sketching a picture to convey an idea is while playing Pictio…

I quite often use UI mockups to show an example of the end result (or ask others to do the same). It doesn't even matter if it's correct, but it's a useful way to start a discussion. I've tried to do this in words but often different people have different interpretations and it simply doesn't work without a picture. I've also found it very useful when people are asking for things that don't entirely make sense, such…

I consider UI mockups the perfect usage for visual programming environments. Obviously a visual product compliments a visual development interface. However, it's a very narrow realm compared to the rest of the programming universe.

It's the same as saying that drawing a picture is easier for most people than programming a picture, and it doesn't really have to do with the topic of visual programming, but rather visual design.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#233

Post by wpietri »

nzonbi wrote: post #128
mvindahl wrote: post #113

I think visual programming is one of those ideas that intuitively seems like a good idea but never is. Thus, it never really dies, it just gets picked up as a kind of rite-of-passage by new generations of developers. Managers also tend to like the concept as it would allow them to bypass the pesky code monkeys and just feed their drawings to the computer. For my master's thesis, some 15 years ago, I programmed a syst…

My horse carriage is very useful. The horse just feeds itself, if you leave him in a grass field. It rarely gets sick and last many years. The wheels are easily replaced from the store. The other day I saw a crazy guy with a mechanical contraption that, according to the guy, moved by burning wood! The guy was demoing it at the town. He filled it with wood, and then had to start the fire. The crazy machine got so hot…

Except that there has been a lot of research.

The first visual programming language I can find is from 1966. They have always been tiny, niche things over a period where we've had waves of text-based languages rise and fall.

One of the striking things for me when I talk with visual programming enthusiasts is that they very rarely have looked at the decades of research. And if you try to talk with them about the history, they seem actively averse.

There's a joke that some people have ten years of experience, and some people just have one year of experience ten times over. My experience has been that visual programming is more like the latter, but for 50 years.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#234

Post by stinos »

nikofeyn wrote: post #68
FrankyHollywood wrote: post #11

Picture says it all: http://thedailywtf.com/articles/Labview-Spaghetti :)

i program in labview daily, and it's always a little disappointing to see this same dumb picture posted all the time in reference to labview and visual programming. NO respectable labview programmer would work like that. you could make the same argument for text-based languages as well, as i have seen some atrociously formatted code in addition to poorly structured code. one of the main issues with labview is that pe…

it's always a little disappointing to see this same dumb picture posted all the time in reference to labview

Yup. It's not unlike the -insert whatever language here (C++ being a good choice)-haters ranting but not actually having used it a lot, or at all.

Moreover: depending on the type of UI, I don't think there is any language out there which can get me the results I need as fast, when I need something 'process control'-like, i.e. lot of display of e.g. electrical signals and a bunch of control buttons/textboxes/comboboxes. Then there is just no match for Labview. And I have quite some experience with writing UIs in WinForms/WPF/Qt... (typical example: good luck writing a pannable, zoomable, cursor-able live multisignal 2D graph in any of those - with labview you just feed data into the premade component and you're done) It even goes so far that even though the backend is in C++ or Python, I might take the overhead of writing IPC between backend and Labview frontend over doing the UI in the backend language.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#235

Post by olau »

nzonbi wrote: post #128
mvindahl wrote: post #113

I think visual programming is one of those ideas that intuitively seems like a good idea but never is. Thus, it never really dies, it just gets picked up as a kind of rite-of-passage by new generations of developers. Managers also tend to like the concept as it would allow them to bypass the pesky code monkeys and just feed their drawings to the computer. For my master's thesis, some 15 years ago, I programmed a syst…

My horse carriage is very useful. The horse just feeds itself, if you leave him in a grass field. It rarely gets sick and last many years. The wheels are easily replaced from the store. The other day I saw a crazy guy with a mechanical contraption that, according to the guy, moved by burning wood! The guy was demoing it at the town. He filled it with wood, and then had to start the fire. The crazy machine got so hot…

There are decades of research. It's not unreasonable to adjust expectations based on that.

Honestly, I feel part of the problem is that this seems to attract people who think that text is bad and more visual = better, while the truth probably is that you need to be really, really careful to arrive at something that doesn't explode in complexity when confronted with all the little details of ordinary programs.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#236

Post by TeMPOraL »

danblick wrote: post #228
vosper wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a dream that one day we'll collectively realize that "buying programmers the best tools" means the most powerful, and not the shiniest. Then we'll all be running ultra-wide monitors with room for many different visual aides on the one screen, backed by the CPU horsepower (overclocked and liquid cooled, if necessary) to make it all fast. And, hopefully, we'll see what an IDE can really be.

As long as we're speculating: I kind of dream that maybe we'll see programming environments that take advantage of VR. Humans are really good at remembering spaces. ("Describe for me your childhood bedroom." or "What did your third grade teacher look like?") There's already the idea of "memory palaces" [1] suggesting you can take advantage of spatial memory for other purposes. I wonder, what would it be like to learn…

> Humans are really good at remembering spaces. ("Describe for me your childhood bedroom." or "What did your third grade teacher look like?")

Some humans. I honestly can't answer you those two questions. I'm much better in remembering what I just read than what space I just saw, and I absolutely suck at remembering (not to mention describing) faces. If you mugged me I probably wouldn't be able to describe you to police beyond the basics like gender and height (I probably won't be remembering what you were wearing).

I say this because being good at remembering spaces is like "everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea" elsewhere in the thread - both are examples of what some people do, and it may be surprising to discover that not all humans are good at it.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#237

Post by icebraining »

kilon wrote: post #229
icebraining wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Blueprints have really become the default in Unreal, why are they so barely talked about? Searching for "unreal blueprints" on Google returns less than two full pages. Do you work in the industry?

Welcome to the failures of Google search engine. Google is great but not so great when you try to make the search a bit smarter. I am about to "work" in the industry I have a Blender plugin and Unreal editor plugin in the works , none of the use a VPL by the way because simply what I am trying to do is too technical for VPLs that target users and not coders. But of course I will be offering VPL support because users…

Well, you said the rule of thumb was to use Blueprints unless you can't avoid C++, that implies a default.

I do agree that Google's not evidence of anything, I just use it as a first approximation when I have no better sources. That said, the marketing channel of a company trying to push its tech doesn't really satisfy me either.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#238

Post by mekkkkkk »

Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

"Painting" it in this case would be a flow chart thingie with an action leading to a decision tree with two outputs. Not extremely complex, and with a bit of practice and a good environment, it probably takes about the same amount of time as writing.

There might be other cases where this is not true, but I think the major gains with a proper visual environment would be on a higher abstraction level. Visualizing the architecture of a project, tracking dependencies, etc.. Basically tasks where your "takes longer to draw" argument is nullified by the fact that it is the computer that does the drawing.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#239

Post by [deleted] »

kilon wrote: post #223
zaphar wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're cherrypicking examples and ignoring counter examples. Yes VPL's in specific niche areas have been useful and largely beaten there competitors. But I know of no general purpose VPL that had succeeded in beating a text only competitor. Text is superior for general purpose languages because it sits in the sweet spot for information density vs ease of use.

Yes and Yes. VPLs are indeed specific purpose and its because of information density. Contrary to what you may believe a VPL is not the evolution of TPL , its actually the evolution of GUI. Reaktor for example is an evolution of VSTs , synthesiser and audio effect plugins that are GUIs. VPLs in 3d are an evolution of the gui properties for material , textures etc (they are not even referred to as VPL). Even in Unreal…

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