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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#231

Post by kethinov »

abrahamepton wrote: post #212
pc86 wrote: post #199

Am I the only one that finds it odd after reading an article about someone making $11/hr in factory losing their job, the top-voted comment (and a good number of the replies) is one lamenting their $150k salary?

I read it as someone lamenting that they have it so easy - nice chair, free snacks, reading code all day - while the author's loved ones are really struggling. And at the same time, the author isn't really rich by the standards of SV - but is rich by the standards of wherever they came from.

Which says a lot about our political discourse. "Rich by the standards of where" the author came from is arguably just middle class, but the author's family probably doesn't see themselves as poor and would balk at characterizing the author as only middle class.

Meanwhile, the author can't even afford a house where s/he lives which calls into my question my characterization of that salary as even qualifying as a middle class salary.

We are being increasingly divided into the poor and the rich so much so that those lucky few that are barely hanging on to middle class earnings are now also being characterized as rich, despite some signs pointing to those earnings not even really qualifying as middle class.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#232

Post by dpark »

spacecowboy_lon wrote: post #226
JanezStupar wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people don't consider 1MM$ mortgages.

I bet a sv employees buying homes in the Vally who will be paying a large % of their salary on a huge mortgage feel poor.

They shouldn't. It's a rich man's privilege to buy an absurdly expensive home. Poor people don't buy expensive homes, if they manage to buy at all.

If you make six figures and are "house poor", it means you're either bad at making financial decisions or you feel the house is worth the sacrifices. Either way you aren't poor and shouldn't feel poor.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#233

Post by theworstshill »

rawTruthHurts wrote: post #193
mason240 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear the domain of this discussion is first world, Western countries of Canada, US, and the EU.

But of course! Let me cater to those of your kind: Those low class lads working for less than the minimum wage without any means nor family support don't have much of an opening in the world either. I'm sure they don't work hard enough to deserve it. Refer to wikipedia for any futher clarifications on "poverty" or "poverty in the First World" in general.

Very funny. Solutions to relative poverty in the first world are different from solutions to absolute poverty everywhere else.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#234

Post by yummyfajitas »

jfoutz wrote: post #186
yummyfajitas wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just agreed that a situation which increases inequality (rich person gaining 3x, poor person 2x) helps the poorer person more . How do you reconcile this with the claim that inequality is the problem?

According to that liberal bastion, the Wall Street Journal, in it's most favorable light, median worker compensation has only gone up about 40% since 1979 [1]. On the other hand CEO compensation over that period has gone up about 1000%. [2] We can quibble about sources if you like, but according to this [3] it's taken about 50 years to double income. If you take a long look at that same graph [3], productivity has cl…

Tl;Dr my hypothetical of everyone getting richer is an accurate description of reality. Also, formerly excluded groups (e.g. women) saw faster income growth than the former privileged class (white men).

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#235

Post by bowlich »

bane wrote: post #153
746F7475 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though m…

The U.S. economy is geographically spread out and enormous . However, due to various historic reasons, the population is mostly focused at the coasts, and for other historic reasons, the north-west and north-eastern coastal areas are the wealthiest and densest. More people and more money means more demand and higher prices. In the rest of the country, which is fairly sparse, you can find high standards of living, min…

There is also travel expenses in the U.S. that I don't think occur as frequently in Europe. For example. I have grandparents in Ohio and California. Parents in South Dakota and live in Arizona -- and my employer is in North Carolina. If I want to visit relatives for a holiday I am talking about blowing a grand minimum on airfare or gas, hotels, kenneling for the dogs, food, etc.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#236

Post by dpark »

kethinov wrote: post #231
abrahamepton wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as someone lamenting that they have it so easy - nice chair, free snacks, reading code all day - while the author's loved ones are really struggling. And at the same time, the author isn't really rich by the standards of SV - but is rich by the standards of wherever they came from.

Which says a lot about our political discourse. "Rich by the standards of where" the author came from is arguably just middle class, but the author's family probably doesn't see themselves as poor and would balk at characterizing the author as only middle class. Meanwhile, the author can't even afford a house where s/he lives which calls into my question my characterization of that salary as even qualifying as a midd…

> the author's family probably doesn't see themselves as poor

I suspect a single mother making minimum wage would most definitely recognize that she's poor.

> and would balk at characterizing the author as only middle class.

This is probably true. Middle class is so inconsistently defined, though, that it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about what constitutes middle class.

> Meanwhile, the author can't even afford a house where s/he lives which calls into my question my characterization of that salary as even qualifying as a middle class salary.

Home ownership is a terrible way to categorize middle class, mostly because as salaries rise, so do expectations of what constitutes an acceptable home. Someone making six figures in the bay area absolutely can own a home. They just can't buy the one they "feel" they should be able to afford. I see a number of homes and condos on sale in Mountain View for When your salary is double the median household income, you're at least middle class and realistically probably upper middle class. The fact that your salary won't buy you a 1.5 million dollar home in the heart of Palo Alto is kind of irrelevant. Moving from Palo Alto to Fremont does not change your social class, even if it does make you hate the commute.

edit: Median family income in San Francisco in 2010 was $71,745. Six figure individual salary is most definitely middle or upper middle class, even in the bay.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-income-beats-...

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#237

Post by noir_lord »

danieltillett wrote: post #100
Dr_tldr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds a lot like the "Just World" fallacy under the cover of genetics. At one point 99% of the population was illiterate and living in thatch huts, and no doubt members of the elite at that time also considered this to be an expression of natural order as well. But as it turns out, almost all of those peasants were capable of learning to read, doing algebra, engaging in abstract reasoning, labor coordination, a…

You might enjoy reading A Farewell to Alms [1]. More importantly your two positions are not excludable. It is possible that the elite of the past were wrong and some segment of the population is incapable of being raised any higher. I personally doubt this is the case, but it has not been ruled out. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Farewell_to_Alms

Given the variance in intelligence I think there probably is an upper limit to how you can "raise" someone.

I also suspect that we are a long way off that, hell who knows what the future looks like, we could end up with neural implants that allow everyone to boost their intelligence/recall.

I'm not stupid but I know there is an upper bound on my intelligence that is lower than many other peoples, not everyone can be Einstein or Hawking.

The more interesting problem is how do we optimise for people reaching their maximum potential or if that is even necessary.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#238

Post by tosseraccount »

dragonwriter wrote: post #61
tosseraccount wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Employers can't test for intelligence? Do you have a link that backs up your assertion that "employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ".

Employers can, in fact, test for intelligence, and a number do (police departments excluding applicants who score too high on such tests -- and the cases validating the legality of that policy -- have been a subject of wide note.) To the extent such test have racially disparate impact, there is a significant burden in showing that the test is a valid measure of ability to do the job for which it is used as part of th…

The NFL uses the Wonderlic test which is an IQ test.

IQ tests are most definitely legal.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#239

Post by VLM »

jahewson wrote: post #222
VLM wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>extras usually in the form of various culture and activities Note that the average local more or less intentionally can't afford the time or money to visit the tourist traps. If you are not rich and want to visit the museums and galleries of Chicago, or attend a Bears game at the stadium, or a music concert, you can't live in Chicago because then you'd be too poor, you have to live elsewhere and visit. What dense, e…

> Note that the average local more or less intentionally can't afford the time or money to visit the tourist traps. If you are not rich and want to visit the museums and galleries of Chicago, or attend a Bears game at the stadium, or a music concert, you can't live in Chicago because then you'd be too poor, you have to live elsewhere and visit. Ah, but that's an American perspective. In Britain museums and art galler…

Maybe it varies. Last time I was in Dublin, it cost 10e to see the book of kells, the Guiness tour was 20e, etc. Almost nothing was free in Dublin. Admittedly the national art gallery was free although there was a shakedown for "donations".

Yes I know Dublin isn't a suburb of London or whatever, but culturally its not that far away.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#240

Post by [deleted] »

laotzu wrote: post #228
Retric wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We get used to excess really easily. "What if people find out my husband only made 85 million last year." Note: That conversation actually happened and the person was worried about how they were going to cut back their lifestyle. With the clear implication that 85 million was just not enough.

It is not so much indicative of human nature as a whole as it is of "civilized" or industrialized cultures. Tribal cultures often exhibit the opposite sort of sentiment. >Primitive commodity money, like the magical words of non-literate society, can be a storehouse of power, and has often become the occasion of feverish economic activity. The natives of the South Seas, when they are so engaged, seek no economic advan…

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