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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#221

Post by leoc »

naravara wrote: post #55
brendoelfrendo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote from the article gave me pause. It sounds like an admission that they wanted the good PR from having a caste bias speaker, but when having a conversation on a difficult topic actually became difficult, they backed down. Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult con…

> Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult conversation you'd rather not have? The same reason speakers on Palestinian rights often can. While they may be on the right side of the issue, it's also very easy for closed discussion spaces to rapidly devolve into pretty viciousl…

That's definitely a genuine factor. But much the same blasts of hot indignation were released when, for example, people in the US tried to address domestic racism in the era between the end of WWII and the Civil Rights Act. And by and large there wasn't any threat of a serious backlash against most of the US' white majority. Instead the anger was driven by the desire to go on being racist without facing criticism for it, or sometimes more by just "but ... but ... I'm the sympathetic Main Character!" attitudes. Clearly both causes are at work to some extent in the backlash against discussions of caste in the USA. It would be wrong to suggest that South Asians or people of South Asian descent in the US are in as secure a position as most of the white population is and was. But I have to say that, without being really familiar with the situation, to me it looks as if it's mostly the latter at this time.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#222

Post by mcv »

car_analogy wrote: post #127
mrcartmeneses wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you dismiss Martin Luther King as an “activist”? But your point is in some ways valid, as it’s important to be able to see Israel through the lens of colonialism and to show that the state’s brutality applied to brown people of all faiths, including Jews. I also find it really strange that any criticism of Israel is labelled as anti-Semitic. I actually think equating the brutal behaviour of the Israeli governme…

> The Tora has exactly zero passages about it being OK to murder children Now, go and crush Amalek; put him under the curse of destruction with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. - 1 Samuel 15 That's one example. The old testament claims God commanded the total extermination of multiple nations competing with the Israelites [1]. This ext…

This might be overly pedantic of me, but Samuel is not part of the Torah. It's part of the Nevi'im.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#223

Post by wolverine876 »

lolinder wrote: post #15

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

> every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism

Isn't that the first step in the flame war, attacking, dismissing, and blaming one side (and before they even say something)? How will someone with a good faith interest in discussing concerns about racism or religionism act, seeing this comment - they will feel shut down, and like they won't be heard and will be attacked. There's already no room for those discussions.

There is a lack of trust - a situation that is the goal of people trying to disrupt open societies and the trolls that help them. Whatever we say or do, the primary goal needs to be to build trust. People who are alarmed act badly - that's why trolls try to alarm people (even if they aren't quite conscious of how it works). Even when people are acting badly, if you can build their trust then very often the situation will improve.

It would be extremely valuable to society to find a way to conduct constructive conversations; I think we are improving, but not nearly quickly enough.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#224

Post by bgdam »

hirako2000 wrote: post #98
rob74 wrote: post #21

> Soundararajan appealed directly to Google CEO Sundar Pichai, who comes from an upper-caste family in India, to allow her presentation to go forward. But the talk was canceled, leading some employees to conclude that Google was willfully ignoring caste bias. > Pichai, the CEO, “is Indian and he is Brahmin and he grew up in Tamil Nadu. There is no way you grow up in Tamil Nadu and not know about caste because of how…

It's rather you to work on the explaining there. Pichai isn't claiming to be unaware of how caste politics may work. I think it's not only OK but desirable for companies to stop ruining the workplace with societal politics. There is a law and public debates for castes and how to address the (no doubt existing even outside India) problem. Prompting an employee of a tech company, even its CEO, reminding the audience of…

> There is a law and public debates for castes and how to address the (no doubt existing even outside India) problem.

That's kinda part of the problem. In India there are laws dealing with caste based oppression and discrimination (how well they are enforced is another story). But in most other countries such laws do not exist. And caste-based discrimination is exceptionally easily and silently accomplished because for a vast majority of Indians, your last name gives away your caste.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#225

Post by the_only_law »

monetus wrote: post #186
baisq wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

(From the us) I went to school with a Hungarian who couldn't understand why we were confused about his jokes - they were based around body building so that his arms could become "gypsy killers". He was such a nice guy, it seemed really discordant. This is an anecdote of the kind of cultural exchange we have.

I knew a similar guy, but he was Spanish and his catchphrase was “Moor killer” which was just really odd to me, given the Reconquista ended a very long time ago, but he says a lot of terms/cultural aspects still exist from then.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#226

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #139
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #18

Is there a Wikipedia list of obscure 'race'-isms? I find reading about other cultures or other time period's biases to be informative and wonder what the common elements might be. Off the top of my head, issues I can think of where an outsider may be oblivious between the "sides" are: Indian caste Japanese Barukumin caste Protestant/Catholic in Europe Jewish people in Europe/US/USSR English Class System, or Southern/…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#227

Post by bobobob420 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #200
bobobob420 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> There is no caste discrimination in US , he literally lives in a 2 million dollar home Would you similarly reject the hardships of a successful black American? If he's facing such animus, why do you think it stops elsewhere? FYI, there are studies [1] and a lawsuit [2] documenting caste discrimination in America. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_discrimination_in_the_Un... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article…

No post body was provided.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#228

Post by rob74 »

booleandilemma wrote: post #192
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to people like Robin DiAngelo, white people are inherently racist, as she wrote in her book White Fragility . It’s difficult to say that we can all agree to not be racist when some ideologues from whom’s political ideas companies base DEI initiatives on claim that racism is an immutable characteristic that many of us are born with.

It sounds like Robin DiAngelo is inherently racist.

I would say anyone who makes such broad statements about groups of people is at least guilty of bigotry, yes...

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#229

Post by wolverine876 »

leoc wrote: post #221
naravara wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult conversation you'd rather not have? The same reason speakers on Palestinian rights often can. While they may be on the right side of the issue, it's also very easy for closed discussion spaces to rapidly devolve into pretty viciousl…

That's definitely a genuine factor. But much the same blasts of hot indignation were released when, for example, people in the US tried to address domestic racism in the era between the end of WWII and the Civil Rights Act. And by and large there wasn't any threat of a serious backlash against most of the US' white majority. Instead the anger was driven by the desire to go on being racist without facing criticism for…

> It would be wrong to suggest that South Asians or people of South Asian descent in the US are in as secure a position as most of the white population is and was.

People in upper castes may be that secure in their communities, which might be what matters.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#230

Post by bobobob420 »

civilized wrote: post #209
bobobob420 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> There is no caste discrimination in US What makes you think you're qualified to make such a blanket statement? Especially since caste discrimination is pervasive in India and immigrants tend to bring their culture with them. I just don't think you could know this, and I wonder what else might be motivating you to make vast generalizations about things you don't know.

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