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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#181
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I saw a big thread related to the topic there were super deeper threads of people just straight up calling each other slurs. They probably would have been flagged, but the threads were just so deep you wouldn’t see that unless you’re intently following the thread.

>Last time I saw a big thread related to the topic there were super deeper threads of people just straight up calling each other slurs. I hope you didn't take my comment is advocating for that. I can't really comment on a thread I didn't see. >They probably would have been flagged, but the threads were just so deep you wouldn’t see that unless you’re intently following the thread. Sounds like pointless name calling.…

> That said, my original point that HN is not a good place to have these discussions stands.

Sorry, I must have missed the not, I thought you were saying this is a good place.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#182
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> list of obscure 'race'-isms The word you need is “xenophobia” (hate of the others, of those who are different). Race is a limited, artificial concept and by focusing on it we miss the forest for the trees. Xenophobia is as old as humanity and can be based on anything: physical features; ideas, religions, languages, family ties, etc.

Since when does '-phobia' mean 'hatred'? If I suffer from arachnophobia, do I hate spiders?

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Edit: It might be a quote from fiction but there's some truth in there somewhere

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How dare we criticize another culture when we have our own problems? Because there are now 4.6 million Indian Americans and they are one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in the US. So it's our own problem now too.

I was going to comment the same thing but then realized the parent comment is listing the tactics people use to shut down the conversation, not their own personal opinions. The point being made is that people who don't want this conversation in public (i.e. people in favor of and/or who benefit from the caste system) will flood the comments with this type of rhetoric which instantly turns the conversation into to a f…

> will flood the comments with this type of rhetoric which instantly turns the conversation into to a flame war rather than a helpful discourse on how to improve things

Which is how they got Google to cancel the talk.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#185
post #21

> Soundararajan appealed directly to Google CEO Sundar Pichai, who comes from an upper-caste family in India, to allow her presentation to go forward. But the talk was canceled, leading some employees to conclude that Google was willfully ignoring caste bias. > Pichai, the CEO, “is Indian and he is Brahmin and he grew up in Tamil Nadu. There is no way you grow up in Tamil Nadu and not know about caste because of how…

It's rather you to work on the explaining there. Pichai isn't claiming to be unaware of how caste politics may work. I think it's not only OK but desirable for companies to stop ruining the workplace with societal politics. There is a law and public debates for castes and how to address the (no doubt existing even outside India) problem. Prompting an employee of a tech company, even its CEO, reminding the audience of…

I don't think workplaces should operate outside of and without influence from society. They're just a group of people in a building (metaphorical or otherwise).

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#186
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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(From the us) I went to school with a Hungarian who couldn't understand why we were confused about his jokes - they were based around body building so that his arms could become "gypsy killers". He was such a nice guy, it seemed really discordant. This is an anecdote of the kind of cultural exchange we have.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote from the article gave me pause. It sounds like an admission that they wanted the good PR from having a caste bias speaker, but when having a conversation on a difficult topic actually became difficult, they backed down. Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult con…

> Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult conversation you'd rather not have? The same reason speakers on Palestinian rights often can. While they may be on the right side of the issue, it's also very easy for closed discussion spaces to rapidly devolve into pretty viciousl…

The same reason speakers on Palestinian rights often can. While they may be on the right side of the issue, it's also very easy for closed discussion spaces to rapidly devolve into pretty viciously anti-semitic tropes.

The roots of this behavior as well as the fear of this behavior lie in a logical fallacy called composition, which is spelled out at the Nizkor Project (a site on the history of the Holocaust):

> The first type of fallacy of Composition arises when a person reasons from the characteristics of individual members of a class or group to a conclusion regarding the characteristics of the entire class or group (taken as a whole). More formally, the "reasoning" would look something like this.

> Individual F things have characteristics A, B, C, etc.

> Therefore, the (whole) class of F things has characteristics A, B, C, etc.

http://www.nizkor.com/features/fallacies/composition.html

Just because the Israeli government is highly repressive towards the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza, and treats non-Jews as second-class citizens within Israel proper, does not mean that all Jews around the world share this behavior. Similarly, just because some Arabs have carried out acts of terrorism does not mean most Arabs approve of terrorist attacks on civilian populations. These notions can certainly be extended to caste conflicts among Indian peoples.

For example, Jews and Muslims live side-by-side in New York City in relative peace and harmony, as do European and Arab descendants.

The reason for this is that the American tradition of strict separation of church and state prevents any one religious group (or ethnic class) from seizing political power and using that power to repress other groups. This is one American tradition that the rest of the world would be wise to embrace, if they wish to minimize such conflicts.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#188

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

> every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism Is there a term for shutting down a discussion by turning the belligerence to eleven? Such that people outside the discussion tune out not the views of those being belligerent, but the discussion itself?

Trolling, or a specific case of it? I think of trolling as disruption, and it is commonly used to shut down discussions and attack good faith community (i.e., where people disagree, listen, tolerate, and support each other's right to hold and express differing opinions). This is one application of it.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you dismiss Martin Luther King as an “activist”? But your point is in some ways valid, as it’s important to be able to see Israel through the lens of colonialism and to show that the state’s brutality applied to brown people of all faiths, including Jews. I also find it really strange that any criticism of Israel is labelled as anti-Semitic. I actually think equating the brutal behaviour of the Israeli governme…

> The Tora has exactly zero passages about it being OK to murder children Now, go and crush Amalek; put him under the curse of destruction with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. - 1 Samuel 15 That's one example. The old testament claims God commanded the total extermination of multiple nations competing with the Israelites [1]. This ext…

This reminds of something I found quite interesting at the time.

"The Holy Quran Experiment": https://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQ

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#190
I observed it multiple times during CS graduate school. An Indian high caste classmate refused to let his roommate sleep in the same bedroom. The higher caste guy told us that his roommate is of lower caste. The other poor guy ended up very obedient and sleep in the couch for 2 years. They have a group of high caste guys and talk sht about a few fellow low caste guys in the class

Eye opening.

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