Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown • Hacker News Board

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#221

Post by Shank » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

ra7 wrote: post #44

Interestingly, the original creator of the video has since made it private. FSD beta testers are carefully handpicked — a lot of the Tesla “influencers” are given access for some free marketing. I wonder how many FSD bad driving videos are not uploaded to YouTube at all because they don’t want to say anything negative about Tesla and possibly lose influence/ad revenue. This is on top of Tesla classifying FSD as level…

There's a mirror of the original video here: https://streamable.com/grihhc. I consider it fairly valuable to study academically, as it shows both how the Tesla autopilot system performs, and how the the driver reacts to the system, with the knowledge that it's a beta, and their manner of movement, operation, and knowledge of the system and what they let it do.

I think the biggest problem I have is that the driver doesn't intervene/even really stop the car. The good autopilot 'test channels' like 'AI DRIVR' will routinely disengage if any safety concern is present.

The monorail test driver, in contrast, knows the monorail is a problem and was criticized for not correcting the car driving under the monorail, which is already illegal behavior.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#222

Post by Draiken » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

oefrha wrote: post #190

Draiken wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not fine in that sense. What I mean is that you don't see a headline on news outlets or twitter hashtags trending for every drunk driver fatality or crash that happens. Which for me tells that collectively, we are fine with it. We accept it as ordinary, as crazy as it may be.

A DUI, in California for instance, means you’re suspended for months (years if you’re a repeat offender). Since it’s basically the same “driver” driving all FSD Teslas, are you arguing that they should be suspended under the same rules for drunken behavior? If so, they will basically be out of commission indefinitely, and we won’t see headlines anymore.

No, my point is that this is overblown just because it's Tesla and people love drama, so this makes headlines and trending topics.

My comparison with drunken drivers is just with the regards to the odd behavior. If you look at a drunk driver (or even someone that fell asleep in the wheel) with a near crash, many times it would resemble this video. But the outrage from the public differs vastly.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#223

Post by phkahler » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

cronix wrote: post #159

I think the whole dream/goal of building a self driving car on top of a system completely designed for manual human interpretation and input is asinine, and that's before you even consider the complexity of adding other humans manually driving or suddenly walking in front of your car from a blind spot. Instead of building a digital system from the ground up, we are forcing manufacturers to come up with tech to read s…

>> What if it's covered in mud, or snow?

That's the entire problem. These systems don't understand anything about the world. If you see a sign covered in snow you're going to recognize it as such and make your best guess as to what it says and weather you care. You probably don't need that information to drive safely because you have a lot of knowledge to fall back on. These things dont, so some folks want to improve GPS accuracy and maps and signage. That's not a viable solution on so many levels.

General AI is the only way forward for fully autonomous cars.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#224

Post by Geee » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

Tesla's system is real time, which means that it makes routing decisions on every frame, and the decisions are independent from previous decisions. It doesn't have memory. It just makes decisions based on what it actually sees with its cameras. It doesn't trust maps, like most other systems. For some reason, it thinks that it must turn right.

Situations like these are sent to Tesla to be analyzed, the corresponding data is added to the training data, and the error is corrected in the next versions. This is how the system improves.

After this situation is fixed, there will be an another edge case that the HN crowd panics over.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#225

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

liber8 wrote: post #206

aaroninsf wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I do not understand: there are keys difference between automation in e.g. aircraft, and what Tesla at al are failing at, e.g., how constrained the environment is; and what the exposure is to anomalous conditions is; and what the opportunity window usually is to turn control back over to a human. The thing I don't understand is, we have a much more comparable environment in ground travel: federal highways. I…

I'm on my third Tesla. FSD on highways has improved so much in the last 6 years. On my first Tesla, autopilot would regularly try to kill you by running you into a gore point or median (literally once per trip on my usual commute). I now can't even remember the last time I had an issue on the highway. Anywhere else is basically a parlor trick. Yes, it sorta works, a lot of the time, but you have to monitor it so clos…

>On my first Tesla, autopilot would regularly try to kill you by running you into a gore point or median (literally once per trip on my usual commute)

And people paid money for this privilege?

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#226

Post by oefrha » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

oneplane wrote: post #179

roywiggins wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are pretty stringent laws against drunk driving in most places... if Tesla's "self driving" modes are that bad then they should be equally illegal

A law doesn't prevent anything, it only applies after the fact. You could argue that the prospect of being prosecuted might scare people into not doing the thing that they are not allowed to be doing, but with all the people doing the things they are not allowed to be doing anyway, I doubt a comparative legal argument helps here. You could make a law that states that your FSD has to be at least as good as humans. Tha…

The key difference is human drivers have independent software, whereas the same software powers all FSD Teslas. One human driver getting drunk/otherwise impaired doesn't affect the software of any other human driver; but if your FSD software is as good as a drunk human, then every single one of your FSD vehicles is a road hazard.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#227

Post by ReidZB » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #142

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…

> Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an important part of why these technologies have been so successful in flight, and examples like this illustrate how far off we are to something like that in cars.

Is that actually the case, though?

I would hope, although perhaps I'm mistaken, that the developers of the actual self-driving systems would be able to effectively reason about what's happening. For example, would a senior dev on Tesla's FSD team look at the video from the article and have an immediate intuitive guess for why the car did what it did? Or better yet, know of an existing issue that triggered the wacky behavior?

Even if not, I'd hope that vehicle logs and metrics would be enough to shed light on the issue.

I don't think I've ever seen a true expert, with access to the full suite of analytic tools and log data, publish a full post-mortem of an issue like this. I'm certain these happen internally at companies, but given how competitive and hyper-secretive the industry is, the public at large never sees them.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#228

Post by gpm » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #187

oefrha wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the admittedly not much footage of Tesla FSD (1-2 hours total maybe) I’ve watched, it seems to be roughly on par with a student driver who occasionally panics for no apparent reason.

The difference is the student driver will learn within a few more dozen hours and be fit for the road, Tesla no silver lining on the horizon.

You have it backwards. With humans driving there is a constant and unending stream of student drivers, because every new human must learn from scratch. There is no silver lining.

With self driving it takes longer for the one individual to learn, but the difference is that there is only the one individual, and it need not ever die. The learning is transferable between cars, regressions between generations need not be accepted. The problem of bad driving can finally be solved.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#229

Post by FartyMcFarter » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

diebeforei485 wrote: post #167

This was a private beta, to be clear.

Except for the people walking / driving on the road.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#230

Post by sleepybrett » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #149

cogman10 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but this is probably the worst behavior I've seen of the FSD software. It abruptly tried to do a right turn on a no-right intersection with no warning (map said it was supposed to go straight, it looked like it was going to do that right up to the last second). Putting aside the "almost hitting a pedestrian", this is really dangerous behavior for an autonomous vehicle.

Tesla on Autopilot is not autonomous. I look at current driver assistance systems as human-robot hybrid. Any driver assistance system should be required to be clear in it's intentions to the driver and give time to react, otherwise it's like a wild horse.

it's sold as an 'autopilot' that means 'automatic pilot' that does not imply hybridization, that implies full automation.