Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

docs.google.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 271 posts

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#221

Post by godelski »

Marsymars wrote: post #177
doctor_eval wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nuts. A 30yo gets sick, infects a 60yo who goes to hospital and lands in ICU. 30yo then gets unrelated disease (chain saw accident. Burst appendix. Slipped in the shower.) Goes to hospital. Repeat this often enough and suddenly you have a crisis in which there are not enough health care workers and beds, and now all ages are dying equally. The idea that young people are not affected by this is just braindead…

This was in the context of people choosing to get the virus, where the risk of infecting a 60yo is essentially nil. At this point, I'd volunteer for infection where I'm locked in a prison cell with a box of Clif bars and some books and am not permitted any human contact until I'm no longer infectious. Am also willing to sign up for periodic re-infection to ensure that I do actually have immunity.

Thank you. I was trying to stress that I believed it was likely that the average HN user could 1) work from home and 2) more easily self isolate than the average person (considering that we're more likely to be "computer people").

I'll admit though, I didn't consider the chances of a chainsaw accident while sick. But you probably shouldn't be using a chainsaw if you're sick.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#222

Post by pca184 »

shakna wrote: post #216
pca184 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, the minister said that even in the event of a crime, the data could not be used. However, two parts combine that show actually, they can. That's incorrect. The only crime that could be a valid reason for using the data is a breach of the emergency biosecurity laws [6(2)(d)] (also see s477 of the Biosecurity Act 2015 (Cth)). Two common legal 'tools' are inclusive clauses and exhaustive clauses. An inclu…

> That's incorrect. The only crime that could be a valid reason for using the data is a breach of the emergency biosecurity laws You haven't fully understood what I tried to convey. Whilst it is true that the data can only be copied from the data store for a restrictive reason, such as ensuring the security of the data store, once it is outside that store, it is no longer protected by the limitations. So this sequenc…

> Once it leaves, it is no longer protected.

Unless there's something I've missed entirely in the regulation, there's nothing that says the data loses its restrictions once it moved. Happy to be corrected and pointed to the specific clause, I just don't see it.

Section 3: "COVID app data is data relating to a person that...has been collected or generated through the operation of an app... and is, or has been, stored on a mobile telecommunications device." The data is defined by its origin, not its current location. The protections apply wherever it currently is.

Section 8: "A person must not decrypt encrypted COVID app data that is stored on a mobile telecommunications device"

Using your scenario, part two would be illegal (s8 especially) and the data request in part 3 should be rejected. The bigger problem is that's what _should_ happen. Whether it's enforced is another story...

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#223

Post by crypto2me »

doctor_eval wrote: post #136
godelski wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can choose to get the virus - but that’s a pretty silly choice IMHO. And if you do, please stay home and don’t give it to anyone else. I don't think this is unreasonable. Most people on HN are under 65 and thus will only get mild symptoms and likely just be out for a few days. Considering we're all probably working remotely, it is also easy to not infect others. Alternatively, a government overreach can last de…

This is nuts. A 30yo gets sick, infects a 60yo who goes to hospital and lands in ICU. 30yo then gets unrelated disease (chain saw accident. Burst appendix. Slipped in the shower.) Goes to hospital. Repeat this often enough and suddenly you have a crisis in which there are not enough health care workers and beds, and now all ages are dying equally. The idea that young people are not affected by this is just braindead…

But we aren’t all in it together. It’s the young loosing jobs, facin a lifetime of higher taxes, moving to a world of mass surveillance and digital dictatorships.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#224

Post by crypto2me »

justatdotin wrote: post #185
mcannon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that on iOS it doesn’t even ask for location, and on Android that’s required for Bluetooth? The source code will show you what is done with that (as others who have decompiled it already have shown it doesn’t use the location anywhere). You can choose to get the virus - but that’s a pretty silly choice IMHO. And if you do, please stay home and don’t give it to anyone else.

how does running the app stop you from getting the virus?

It doesn’t

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#225

Post by andrewstuart »

mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

Sorry but you're coming across as telling people what to do - it's somewhat patronising.

There's a key principle here - no application with such scope should be closed source.

It is in no-ones interest that it be closed source.

In fact the software becomes more secure when many eyes are on it.

And, once the government has it out there - with the blessing of people like you - then they will have no urgency to make it open source.

Now is exactly the right time to say "we'll use this BUT only if it's open source."

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#226

Post by fuckthehumanity »

dghcrypto wrote: post #219
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

It's easy to fix the app so that it does not need the phone number and to have the app notify the user of the need to get a test instead of having a contact tracer having to double handle the information and ring the user. I believe the fact the app is doing this more about its heritage than any design here, however as an "Australian innovation" we could fix this and avoid the prospect of vulnerable people being rung…

This is an extremely good point. The potential for misuse through ignorance and misinformation is high. How many "ATO" phone calls have we all received? This service could be genuinely anonymous, although of course under existing laws the government may already have created a back door, and as long as we're using authenticated app stores, nothing is truly untraceable.

Having said that, this might very well help us in the right against the virus.

I'm quite willing to wait for the source code before installing.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#227

Post by godelski »

hilbert42 wrote: post #172
godelski wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. I actually believe this is helpful. Just in any democratic setting you want different types of players. You want the "burn the system down" people, because they provide harsh critiques and don't hold back. You want the "okay, but I have reservations" people, because they will push forward but also consider what they are doing (and will…

"Being critical of those in power is a keystone to democracy." That may be so for an ideal democracy but with our far-from-perfect ones where the power imbalance inevitably favors the incumbents, precious little ever changes.

I think this is because people lost sight. Right now parties are often associated with peoples' identities. So being critical to a member of a party is seen as being critical to the identity of that person. We forgot that no single representative can ever capture our beliefs 100%. Which I don't understand, because it would be insane to believe that any other human being understands you perfectly. I don't care if you've been married for 50 years.

But forgetting this is a tactic of divide and rule. My team vs your team. I can tell you as someone that is pretty vocal about my distaste for parties that I am still frequently lumped into the opposing team of whoever I'm talking to as soon as I disagree.

Critique is a keystone to democracy, but it isn't the only one. Unity is as well. But unity doesn't mean we have to agree. Unity means that we recognize that we're on the same team and trying to make our country better, even if we disagree with the methods. It is recognizing that we can't hold all the answers, we're human after all, and that to get closer to the objective reality we need to consider many positions. But that's divide and rule's bread and butter.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#228

Post by tastroder »

addandsubtract wrote: post #133
tastroder wrote: post #2

It's interesting to see these tracing app discussions crop up all over the world at the moment. In Germany it quite literally took dozens of public interest groups, two weeks of media attention, EU guidance and an open letter by hundreds of scientists to make the government switch from central data collection to an acceptable decentralised approach. The amount of misinformation put out by lobby groups in the process…

Do you have a source for the change of course? The CCC published an open letter[0] 2 days ago and I doubt anything changed over the weekend. [0] https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2020/corona-tracing-app-offene...

Only German sources at the moment, the head of the Bundeskanzleramt issued a joint statement with health minister Spahn over the weekend.

https://twitter.com/HBraun/status/1254317591897804801?s=19

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#229

Post by endgame »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #142
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

> - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. After the abuses of Metadata Retention, and how AABill passed, no. History shows that the Australian Government will and continue to abuse people. The Australian Government cannot be trusted, and if you do, you're naive.

Don't forget censusfail and robodebt. This government does not have a good history with tech.

I will say that this determination from the Health Minister was a breath of fresh air, but it needs to be made law when Parliament sits: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L00480

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#230

Post by godelski »

hilbert42 wrote: post #186
driverdan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes it worse. A well-intentioned, well-meaning government org could create something with proper privacy controls and then another part of the government with worse intentions could get their hands on the data.

"A well-intentioned, well-meaning government org " Yuh, has there ever been one? If so where and when? (I've been around quite some years now and I've never seen one anywhere.)

Never attribute to malice what can be just as easily attributed to stupidity. While there are clear bad actors, I do believe that many do think what they are doing is for the best. Few people are actually evil, most are just stupid. I'd consider that a win considering that we're chimps that are barely able to communicate with one another even when we speak the same language.
Post reply on HN