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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#221

Post by dtech »

repolfx wrote: post #155
dtech wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice how I separately addressed JVM and Java. Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages. JVM is in a stronger position than Java, but imagine a world were 15-10 years ago native compilation for JVM bytecode became available instead of 1 year ago. LLVM wouldn't have stood a chance. Kotlin and Scala (I'm not too familiar with Clojure and others) are hedging their bets and making JS/Webassembly a…

LLVM would have been created even if free/open source, SubstrateVM style tech existed back then because LLVM was designed as a competitor to GCC for compiling C and C++. The JVM can run C/C++ code these days 'natively' (by JIT compiling LLVM bitcode using Sulong) but that's not what it was created to do. Also bear in mind LLVM is not really a JVM competitor despite the name. LLVM is a toolkit for building compilers,…

> Also bear in mind LLVM is not really a JVM competitor despite the name. LLVM is a toolkit for building compilers

It started out as a (lower-level than JVM) VM and evolved into what it is now, mainly because of Apple's requirements and funding.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#222

Post by perlgeek »

threeseed wrote: post #51
bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

What's the relationship between OpenJDK and Oracle, exactly?

As somebody who's not deep in the Java ecosystem, the precise relationship is not clear to me, but it does seem that Oracle is a major contributor to OpenJDK at least, most likely also involved with the project steering.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#223

Post by pron »

dtech wrote: post #52
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

> I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years.

I'll gladly take that bet. People said the same about lambdas.

> Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain better.

I don't see any competitor coming anywhere near Java on technical merits. Not only is there no stagnation, but true breakthroughs -- in GC, compilation and observability are being made in Java and almost nowhere else in the past few years. That's not to say that Java doesn't have some glaring deficiencies but they're being addressed.

Are they being addressed too slowly? Perhaps, but that's something we've heard about Java for a long time, and the perception has usually turned out wrong. I think this is because such complaints are made by HN readership that misunderstand the industry's priorities.

> LLVM and webassembly are eating JVM's cake, and a multitude of languages like Kotlin, C#, Go, Rust and even Javascript and Python are chipping away at Java's market share.

Java's short-lived complete domination was a fluke. Now its market share represents a more normal one for a technological leader.

LLVM and webassembly are eating the JVM's cake only on HN. Kotlin shares well over 90% of its code with Java, and is a part of the Java ecosystem. C# has always been a big competitor, and Rust is not really chipping much away from Java as it's optimized for different domains. Go certainly took a bite, but its rise has stalled. This leaves JS and Python. JS has truly been a remarkable success due to its ubiquity on the browser, and it has taken a big bite out of all languages. Python is the most interesting one in the bunch. It is nowhere near as technologically advanced as Java, but it has other important benefits that many companies now care about.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#224

Post by tcptomato »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #131
dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

Hungary and Poland aren't the first to abuse the unanimous-1 veto. The Netherlands always vetos Romania's application to enter the Schengen zone as Romania's harbors to the Black Sea will provide cheaper alternatives for import of goods to the Dutch ones.

Right, a port at the other end of Europe without good connections to the West, whose usage maybe makes sense only for ships passing through the Suez and Bosporus is a competitor to the ones sitting on the Atlantic.

And it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the Romanian coastal surveillance system was conveniently down when cocaine started to shop up on the beaches.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#225

Post by jayd16 »

cesarb wrote: post #186
cmiles74 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think every Java developer should be familiar with C# and dotNet Core. There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up.

> There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up. Could you recommend good tutorials/manuals for developers with Java experience to learn C# (preferably without having to install Windows)?

Download Jetbrain's Rider IDE and I'm pretty sure it'll get you hacking away in no time.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#226

Post by scarface74 »

BoyRobot777 wrote: post #217
scarface74 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The contention was that other languages had a “lot to catch up” with Java because it’s been around for 25 years. So how haven’t other statically typed languages “caught up”? In fact, Java is so far behind C# with true Generics, LINQ - not the syntax the entire linq expressions -> expression trees -> runtime providers that can parse the trees and translate it to a destination syntax, etc. it’s laughable. Can anyone sa…

Here we go again with "true Generics". Type erasure makes interop easy (for an almost insignificant cost), including with Java prior to generics. But that's also what makes different languages on the Java platform interop so well (contrast with the CLR, where this is not the case; they've baked variance into the runtime and are paying a high price for that decision). If Java had baked their type system into JVM, Scal…

Seeing that generics have been around since 2005 in C#, I think the .Net community has had plenty of time to work around the incompatibilities....

There are other languages that support CLR besides C# and they manage to “work around” generics.

All in all, The JVM is leading not only CLR on all fronts, but pretty much any other runtime. C# compilers and GCs are at least a decade behind Java's. You may argue on how important those things are compared to other tradeoffs, but those are the areas where Java was designed to compete at, and those are the areas where it is leading by a wide margin.

By what measurement? Have any specifics?

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/acss.2018.23.issue-1...

And Java still doesn’t have anything equivalent to LINQ.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#227

Post by amanaplanacanal »

blattimwind wrote: post #199
sheeshkebab wrote: post #167

If I understand correctly, OpenJDK is licensed under GPL with classpath exception - and the only thing that is preventing openjdk from being unusable in any commercial settings is a few lines of legalese, controlled by Oracle, on handful of source files in various packages. If Oracle removes that classpath exception legalese in some upcoming jdk version from these source files (which they are fully in control of), op…

> Am I mistaken about any of this? You can't revoke a GPL license unless the licensee violated the GPL. Additionally, the GPL has this nifty "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients" clause. In other words, if you put some code out there under the GPL, there is no way for you to un-GPL that particular code. Even if you bring out a new version of it that isn't GPL any more, the old version still is. (This is quit…

It sounds like the parent's issue is the other way, that Oracle might remove the classpath exception and then GPL would infect everything, effectively killing commercial opportunities.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#228

Post by jayd16 »

marak830 wrote: post #68
dtech wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The .NET ecosystem is an order of magnitude smaller than the JVM ecosystem. Up until ~3 years¹ ago C#/.NET also meant a fully Microsoft and Windows environment for all practical purposes². This is changing and Microsoft seems to be embracing open source and Linux, but it takes time for a 20 year old ecosystem to fully make the transition. ¹ The story is Steve Balmer was very anti-open source and forbade most interop…

Hmm thanks for the info, I'll admit I haven't used pretty much any ecosystem outside of windows (aside from my new jobs Mac which drives me nuts(non coding job)), but haven't had a need to install any variant of Linux. Which still leaves me a tad confused, is the anger because c# is a propriety windows tech(I'm guessing from the responses - which btw thank you to the threads I don't respond to).

It used to force you to a Windows only stack which can be problematic in a server based app. Its much easier to manage linux servers even if you just look at it from an OS license perspective.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#229

Post by wbl »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Good luck doing that when OpenJDK exists.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#230

Post by dijit »

pron wrote: post #219
vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

> The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. This has been said for at least the last ten years. Not only is Java not dying, but companies like Apple and Facebook (not to mention Netflix, Amazon and Google, that are mostly or largely Java already) are increasing their investment in the platform. This was not the case when COBOL was 25. The reason this is so is that J…

I think you’ve drunk the kool-aid a little. Outside of complex projects headed by PhD compsci students (who used to learn java in uni but those courses are now taught in python) there isn’t a whole lot of mindshare going towards java these days. At least in regards to new FOSS projects.

I can say that my company’s use of java is diminishing rapidly over the last 5 years too.

No matter what you think of the technological advancement of the language and ecosystem- it matters not if people are not using it.

Oracle itself is a pariah, the vast majority of the tech industry avoid it.

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