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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#211

Post by disgu »

LunaSea wrote: post #162
elmo2you wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well Russia already annexed Crimea .. Yet another show of either (willful) ignorance or (intentional) peddling of (Western) propaganda. People may think whatever they want about what happened to Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, but to called that an annexation (or an invasion, as many have) is disingenuous as best. It's no secret (in fact, it's on public record) that it was the USA who pumped copious amounts of money in…

The facts remain: - Ukraine was an independent country that got invaded by a neighbouring country's military - Georgia was an independent country that got invaded by a neighbouring country's military Russia also regularly crosses neighbouring countries' (Sweden, Finland, Alaska, etc.) borders with fighter planes, boats and submarines.

> Russia also regularly crosses neighbouring countries' (Sweden, Finland, Alaska, etc.) borders with fighter planes, boats and submarines.

That's something all capable militaries do on a regular basis. "Accidentally", of course. The US does this, Russia does it, China does it and so on. While it's of course not nice, it's disingenuous to use it in any kind of argument.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#212

Post by awaythrows »

cturner wrote: post #138
_lbaq wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Meanwhile, Russia, a developing nation with a history of muscular military engagements in the region, is spending more than six percent of its much larger GDB on military. The Russia GDP is less than 10% of the GDP of EU, or the same size as the Benelux (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) countries. Its population is shrinking rapidly due to low birth rates and very high death rates. Its ruled by a totalitaria…

Loosely I agree with commenters remarking that the Cold War is over. (Though not the disrespect for the Russian capability. That is a country that still knows how to fight a war.) But if not for Russia, why does Europe need a military? To get strategic independence from the US? In that case, where is the money? Why the howling about Trump wanting to reduce the US contribution? And how is the command going to work? Th…

> why does Europe need a military?

If you want peace, prepare for war. In 1939 we weren't prepared for war, that didn't turn out so well.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#213

Post by drkrab »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #47
jerkstate wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the unfortunate truth. Intelligence agencies have to learn to do more with less information if we want basic privacy to survive as a natural right.

Our elected representatives created these agencies. We need to elect better people.

Even in Denmark where the political system is much more cooperative than in the US, politics is still a “dirty job” full of spin and personal sacrifice, exposure etc. As a result many good people would never put it on themselves to enter politics.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#214

Post by csunbird »

cturner wrote: post #182
RobertoG wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations [..]" This is a list of military spending by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_... If you count only France and Germany they spend already more than Russia. The European Union together spend more money in defense that any other country in the world except the USA (and around the same that China). So, what's the reason…

Among reasons for the American spend (1) it helps to support the nuclear non-proliferation cause, and has historically been used to dissuade Australia and Japan and South Korea and West Germany from creating their own nuclear weapons programs; (2) because the US has historically guaranteed northern Europe against a USSR tank invasion, though this may no longer be relevant; (3) the US is security guarantor for much of…

Also, spending more money on defense for EU means buying military equipment from US, which US would definitely profit from.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#215

Post by quonn »

elmo2you wrote: post #151
ignasl wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't invade Poland or Baltics because those countries are in NATO and EU and it's way too risky. Russia seems pretty involved in all the hotspots lately including starting a war in Ukraine. Very likely same fate would be for Poland and Baltics if they didn't protect themselves with stronger allies. And even if current Russia is not interested/capable to cause trouble to east EU - that doesn't mean it won't chan…

In case you didn't get that memo: the shit in the Ukraine didn't start with Russian involvement. It started with very active meddling, spending copious amounts of money, into the internal politics of the country. It should also be noted that much of that money went to ultra-right-wing militant organizations, who have zero respect for democracy or freedom. Essentially, the USA bought itself a (fascist) private army to…

Alaska is part of the US. Ukraine is not part of Russia.

Everything else in your comment is also factually wrong or even a deliberate lie just like the ones you spread in your other replies here.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#216

Post by disgu »

nix23 wrote: post #194
oblio wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Times have changed. A big German army isn't the thing anyone in 2020 worries anymore. The last times they worried, Germany was 10% of the world economy and growing fast and Europe itself was probably 50% of the world economy (probably more considering all the territories). Now Germany is something like 3% and Europe is at 20% and going down.

>A big German army isn't the thing anyone in 2020 worries anymore. A really? https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article210474071/Waf... Would you be happy if DEVGRU/Sealteam6..whatever they call them now, consist of KKK Members? >Germany is something like 3% and Europe is at 20% and going down. That 3% cannot be true, Germany is at least 1/3 the European economy, and you know since i live in Europe...i worry abo…

So which country would you want to take the lead. Or phrased differently: Which country's army do you think doesn't have far right people in it?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#217

Post by themihai »

throwaway4good wrote: post #118
coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

Denmark is not France and Denmark has no guarantee that France would step in to stop a Russian invasion.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#218

Post by oblio »

nix23 wrote: post #194
oblio wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Times have changed. A big German army isn't the thing anyone in 2020 worries anymore. The last times they worried, Germany was 10% of the world economy and growing fast and Europe itself was probably 50% of the world economy (probably more considering all the territories). Now Germany is something like 3% and Europe is at 20% and going down.

>A big German army isn't the thing anyone in 2020 worries anymore. A really? https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article210474071/Waf... Would you be happy if DEVGRU/Sealteam6..whatever they call them now, consist of KKK Members? >Germany is something like 3% and Europe is at 20% and going down. That 3% cannot be true, Germany is at least 1/3 the European economy, and you know since i live in Europe...i worry abo…

> That 3% cannot be true, Germany is at least 1/3 the European economy, and you know since i live in Europe...i worry about Germany.

Your info is out of date by a decade or more, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product

> In 2017, according to the CIA's World Factbook, the GWP was around US $80.27 trillion in nominal terms and totaled approximately 127.8 trillion international dollars in terms of purchasing power parity (PPP).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany

> German GDP: $3,780 trillion, $4.454 trillion PPP.

So, Germany is 4% of the world GDP in nominal terms and 3.4% in PPP terms. And that was back in 2017, developing countries are growing faster, so Germany's share probably went down.

Regarding Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union

> EU GDP: $18.292 trillion, $18.377 trillion GDP.

So Europe is 22% of the world GDP in nominal terms and 14% in PPP terms. And it's definitely going down as a share of the world economy.

Germany also is only only about 20% of EU GDP in nominal terms and 24% in PPP terms. This part is also going down.

You're conflating the EU with Europe. Europe has quite a few economies outside the EU: UK, Russia, Switzerland, Norway, etc. Germany is probably 12-15% of the European economy, or maybe less.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#219

Post by ekabod »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #207
throwaway4good wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

> France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia On its homeland. France has limited excess ability to project power to e.g. Lithuania. Or Greenland. About 10,000 troops abroad to Russia's nearly 50,000. (Though an advantage in carriers.)

carriers and submarines loaded with nuclear missiles are not enough for you to project power in Greenland?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#220

Post by themihai »

elmo2you wrote: post #139
thefounder wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Russia already anexed Crimea and is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. You may not find Ukraine enough European for you to count. Next: other Eastern European countries. Next: the baltic countries.

> Well Russia already annexed Crimea .. Yet another show of either (willful) ignorance or (intentional) peddling of (Western) propaganda. People may think whatever they want about what happened to Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, but to called that an annexation (or an invasion, as many have) is disingenuous as best. It's no secret (in fact, it's on public record) that it was the USA who pumped copious amounts of money in…

So Russia annexed Crimea and is supporting a civil war in Eastern Ukraine to save them from the invasion of U.S capital and U.S energy corporations. Good to know that Russia is there to annex countries that are about to fall for this nefarious american trap.

Some would say Denmark is already in this unthinkable situation so the poor people of Denmark can only hope that one day, some green patriotic Russians will land on danish soil to save them.

>> USA who pumped copious amounts of money in getting a "favorable" group of very questionable "politicians"

Let's not talk about questionable "politicians" supported by Putin. They are all either dictators or wanna be soviet/communist, oligarchs or the worst shady thing you could possible imagine.

Until Russia realises that nobody wants (except Russia) the Soviet era back these small countries have no choice but support U.S's interests. The way Russia is doing business & diplomacy is just ugly(albeit efficient at times).

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