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Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

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Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#211

Post by RobertRoberts »

n4r9 wrote: post #72
RobertRoberts wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How I "feel" about a scientific result is irrelevant to the result. (ie, if I am mad or happy, it doesn't _affect_ the result) Therefore feelings are irrelevant to both the scientific process and the results found from using it.

Right, but they're very relevant to the process of convincing people to accept those results, which is potentially a big part of the solution.

This seems to be the mantra, justify manipulation of people through emotions to push through a solution.

The problem with this is that who decides what solution? If the motive for the solution is emotions, then any solution that "feels good" or "appears to solve" the problem will suffice.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#212

Post by apo »

CalRobert wrote: post #147
apo wrote: post #61

I'm sure the emotions are genuine, but articles like this leave me with a sense that those concerned are waiting for others (especially "leaders") to make something happen. They want electric cars to be mandated so they can continue their addiction to the automobile despite the severe environmental effects of car culture regardless of the fuel source. They want government to force companies to develop carbon neutral…

I can choose not to be a school shooter in an attempt to reduce shootings, too. Personal choice matters little globally. It's too late for the pebbles to vote, so to speak.

> Personal choice matters little globally.

Is not the personal, voluntary choice to use Facebook a decision that matters globally? There is no compulsion or legislation there. At least not in the form that many might think.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#213

Post by apo »

Will_Parker wrote: post #98
apo wrote: post #61

I'm sure the emotions are genuine, but articles like this leave me with a sense that those concerned are waiting for others (especially "leaders") to make something happen. They want electric cars to be mandated so they can continue their addiction to the automobile despite the severe environmental effects of car culture regardless of the fuel source. They want government to force companies to develop carbon neutral…

The trouble is, making sacrifices for yourself, as a voluntary moral choice, and just expecting other people to do the same is not going to be a successful strategy, because you're up against human nature itself. Any pragmatic strategy to reduce the impact of climate change must start with international cooperation. From the point of view of the USA, this must start with a new administration. Then, with this cooperat…

> From the point of view of the USA, this must start with a new administration.

Not much happened under the old administration. Things got worse.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#214

Post by [deleted] »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #211
n4r9 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but they're very relevant to the process of convincing people to accept those results, which is potentially a big part of the solution.

This seems to be the mantra, justify manipulation of people through emotions to push through a solution. The problem with this is that who decides what solution? If the motive for the solution is emotions, then any solution that "feels good" or "appears to solve" the problem will suffice.

[deleted]

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#215

Post by RobertRoberts »

arrrg wrote: post #70
RobertRoberts wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How I "feel" about a scientific result is irrelevant to the result. (ie, if I am mad or happy, it doesn't _affect_ the result) Therefore feelings are irrelevant to both the scientific process and the results found from using it.

That’s correct, but science also won’t solve this. This is a political/social issue that has to be approached this way. The science should inform our decisions but in order to reach that goal one might have to do more than insist that the science is correct and doesn’t care about your emotions.

Is there a non-science based solution for fixing the climate?

Those that argue against science tend to argue that myths are real. Like the existence of aliens, crystals have magic powers, aligning of chakras, etc...

Edit: An example of science fixing pollution:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20774621

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#216

Post by RobertRoberts »

Brain_Thief wrote: post #123
RobertRoberts wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How I "feel" about a scientific result is irrelevant to the result. (ie, if I am mad or happy, it doesn't _affect_ the result) Therefore feelings are irrelevant to both the scientific process and the results found from using it.

In your fervor to dismiss the human experience it appears that you have played a bit loose with the logical formation of your argument and thereby missed an important point. Your premise is that the veracity of previously-achieved scientific results holds independent of human opinion or emotion. You then use this basis to conclude that "...feelings are irrelevant to both the scientific process and the results found f…

I won't pretend feelings don't exist, science can't even measure them. I am simply arguing that we need a real solution, and how we feel about that solution doesn't change whether it will work or not.

A non-functioning solution that feels good won't fix the climate. Arguing that feelings are relevant isn't a fix.

The great leaders down through history did not rely on making people feel good, they did the opposite. They inspired people to take on real difficulties. To face _not_ feeling good.

That is the problem right now, hypocritical leadership has no ability to inspire or motivate and will not make any changes to the climate.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#217

Post by Recurecur »

adrianN wrote: post #201
Recurecur wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "we" includes every nation on Earth? Including China and India who have built many coal fired electricity plants lately, and have plans to build many more? Plants that have design lifetimes of ~40 years? You expect to have all fossil fuel powered vehicles worldwide phased out within 20 years? Including aircraft? What about cargo ships? There is no practical chance of even hitting the lowest trajectory IPCC targe…

Well then we probably shouldn't even try right? Just keep on accelerating towards that cliff.

Did I say that? What does make sense is to do cost effective, beneficial, and non-sacrificial things.

One of the best things overall is to promote next generation nuclear power as a major alternative to coal. If coal could be phased out entirely within 20-30 years that would be a huge win. Perhaps grid storage could largely replace gas generation.

That would leave fossil fuels mainly in transportation, which would be a giant improvement over today.

Lower CO2 trajectories give more time to rigorously evaluate the science, get more data, and develop revolutionary technology.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#218

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

nabnob wrote: post #180
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't make a difference until you stop the over population. The biggest contributor is simply being born.

Since the United States has one of the highest energy usage rates per capita, do you mean tackling overpopulation in the United States?

The US has 330 million people, China has nearly 1.5 billion. No I think the US is just fine.

Per capita only matters if you're okay ignoring the bulk of the problem.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#219

Post by mikelyons »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #196
mikelyons wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to show you that in your cynicism you're talking a lot without saying anything. The purpose of life is to become utterly selfless and infinitely loving, but this is the highest consciousness, failing to do this is living hell. If the collective level of consciousness in humanity rises, we will be much better equipped to choose correctly as a collective organism. Those people who are polluting, murdering, l…

I applaud your greater perspective and motive, but at the end of the day a very real course of action needs to happen. Do we turn right or turn left? That decision needs to be based on achieving a very real goal. As adults we have to do things we don't like every day to achieve our goals. We have to choose things that make us unhappy and miserable so our kids have food. Emotions are more often our enemy than our frie…

It takes raising your level of consciousness to overcome hypocrisy, self-bias, and to act honorably even when honor is made up.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#220

Post by damnyou »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #166
damnyou wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you presenting a false dichotomy?

A false dichotomy is when two opposing views are expressed as the only options. I am comparing a real solution (science) with a phony one (emotions). Can a warm fuzzy doctor cure cancer with science? Yes. Can a warm fuzzy doctor cure cancer with emotions and no science? No. So, this is not a false dichotomy. The climate can not be changed by feeling different about it. Is there a solution to climate change that does…

There's no solution to climate change that does not involve science.

However, there's no solution to climate science that doesn't involve engaging with humans either. Pathos is a fundamental part of engaging with humans.

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