Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss • Hacker News Board

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#141

Post by kolbe » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #90

navigatesol wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China and India contribute 4-10 times less CO2 per capita than the US. And rising, fast. Besides that, the planet doesn't care about per capita numbers.

People do though. Why should we stunt the developing world's growth just because we've already fucked things up too much? Seems like colonialism all over; the West gets to keep polluting, but the developing world must stop developing?

If "stunting developing world growth" is too much of a cost to endure for your cause, then this isn't a WW2 level emergency. In WW2, the US deemed the ends to be important enough to kill innocent German/Japanese cogs and civilians by the millions.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#142

Post by kebman » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #115

RobertRoberts wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Recognizing emotions as part of the problem and solution feels like a big step. I think this is actually the worst thing we can do. Science is facts, cold hard facts. If you want to get rid of the science and focus on emotions, then the solutions to the _real_ problem will get distorted.

“The climate is always changing” After you’ve had 100 people tell you that, you’ll probably change your mind. Social media has made the problem worse. For some reason, deniers flood the discussion with silly statements like that. I keep the xkcd cartoon handy for any discussions: https://xkcd.com/1732/

There are people who stand ready to deny that cartoon too, though... :/ I mean, not even common sense insurance talk works on these guys. Here, kitty, kitty, insurance can save you (and me) from the cancer known as end of the world. No? You'd rather that we both die... Great...

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#143

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #76

CalRobert wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Also, I detest fascism - but devil's advocate - is fascism worse than literal extinction?

Because I don't believe people and businesses can accomplish the individual environmental goals, much less fast enough, on their own. If human contribution to climate change is a result of aggregate behavior, then we're talking about drastically changing the micro behaviors (what you can eat, how you travel, no black markets, etc etc) of everyone on earth. I believe that can only be accomplished through extreme autho…

Those side effects are hideous. Slavery, etc.

But I said "extinction". Meaning everyone - you, me, my kid, etc. dying, maybe horribly.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#144

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

decasteve wrote: post #89

I was in my teens in the 1990s following the Kyoto Accord with great interest. I went through my own crisis of feeling bad, a period of bereavement in the early 2000s, thinking we’re screwed. People and politicians are all talk and no action — denial or cognitive dissonance — it doesn’t matter as long as nothing gets done. The same result. I live in a town where people fight any improvement that might make pedestrian…

If we don't fix this those grades won't matter.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#145

Post by kebman » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:15 PM UTC

I read that a single cargo ship pollutes more than the entire car park of many countries(!), and so I figured, it's just common sense to support autonomous sail ships. I don't know how much pollution we could save, but I'm guessing between thousands to millions of tons each year. I think this will work, because not all cargo is time-intensive as long as there's good logistics behind it. And I think autonomous sail ships could really make a difference here. I really want to get into this. Can someone help me? :)

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#146

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

kazagistar wrote: post #127

toomuchtodo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should’ve been more specific. Crop failures where middle class Americans start to starve. Society is nine meals away from revolution. Keep a close eye on US grain reserves and other ag indicators. I agree with your points that crops are already failing. It just hasn’t impact the first world middle class yet.

I disagree. Most of America is already onboard; it's just being held back from progress by its non democratic systems, a minority that clings to power, and power systems that can spend unbounded amounts of money for short term profits.

If those Democratic systems worked we'd have had Gore in 2000 and a different world.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#147

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

apo wrote: post #61

I'm sure the emotions are genuine, but articles like this leave me with a sense that those concerned are waiting for others (especially "leaders") to make something happen. They want electric cars to be mandated so they can continue their addiction to the automobile despite the severe environmental effects of car culture regardless of the fuel source. They want government to force companies to develop carbon neutral…

I can choose not to be a school shooter in an attempt to reduce shootings, too.

Personal choice matters little globally. It's too late for the pebbles to vote, so to speak.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#148

Post by kolbe » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

kilian wrote: post #120

PorterDuff wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Any time overpopulation isn't mentioned as a (or 'the') primary cause, my nictitating membranes close up and I lose interest in reading.

I have a hard time seeing the overpopulation argument as anything other than classist and racist nonsense. It's not the vast majority in developing nations that are using up all our fossil fuels and poisoning the planet, it's us. And the damage being done in developing nations is nearly all to serve our needs in the developed world. We are the problem. See also things like https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/10/carnival…

I don't know who you mean by "us," but while this distribution is somewhat top heavy, it's not something where even if the most destructive country took its emissions to zero, the world would be safe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous...

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#149

Post by sleepysysadmin » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

kazagistar wrote: post #133

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #107

The problem with climate change isn't climate change. It's because it has become co-opted by politics. It's now impossible to discuss climate change without becoming political. The politics don't even agree relative to the side. Climate change has left the spectrum of left-right wing.

Any change that affects society is going to be political. Why is this a surprise? How could it be different?

Lets take Acid rain for example. This was a major environmental problem. It never got political. We determined it was the fault of coal power plants. We then fixed that problem with legislation. Acid rain hasn't really been a problem since.

The problem of politicization of climate change are people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She has declared that the world will be uninhabitable in less than 12 years. Humanity will be dead in 12 years.

Her fix? She wants to ban airplanes, boats, and cars(non-electric) this sounds rather absurd. A democratic senator from Hawaii asked her what she thought about what would happen to Hawaii. She didnt have an answer. Then she went further. They want to basically setup the various usual communist things. This is the real goal of the new green deal. Her own chief of staff publicly admitted the new green deal originally didn't have anything to do with the climate. It was entirely about pushing a communist agenda.

Which is why it was voted down unanimously in the senate.

They don't care about climate change, they are using it in name to push their agenda.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#150

Post by goatinaboat » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

jonbronson wrote: post #65

RobertRoberts wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems rational discussion is not what people actually want. Hypocrisy is rampant in the discussion about climate change. Irrationality and emotions are manipulation tactics, not solutions, therefore nothing will actually change with the climate. The worst is when _real_ demonstrable solutions are presented and rejected because they don't "feel good" or make some kind of marketing splash.

Don't mistake a lack of empowerment with hypocrisy. When someone advocates for policy to limit the emissions of vehicles produced by the automotive industry, but happens to drive their car to work everyday, that's not hypocrisy. That's a person who is coping with the system around them, still advocating to change that system in the only way that is meaningful. Systemic changes require large actions. To pretend that i…

someone advocates for policy to limit the emissions of vehicles produced by the automotive industry, but happens to drive their car to work everyday, that's not hypocrisy

Agreed, but if a person who owns multiple homes and flies between them says it, it’s clear that they want you to believe something that they don’t believe themselves. The climate movement really needs to divest itself of celebrities because they do nothing but undermine the message.