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Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

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Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#191

Post by Rolivaw »

adrianN wrote: post #178
Rolivaw wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of what you mention are sustainability propositions, which are not useful long term, probably not even short term. We can’t create sustainability, it’s a fad we’ve all been fed, based on anthropometric views of the world which aren’t going to improve it. They will cause stagnation and that will cause collapse faster than climate change ever could. Electric cars still cost to produce what non electrics do, we hav…

I guess we have to disagree here. I prefer we solve the problem with the solutions we can implement right now instead of continuing to increase our emissions hoping for some deus ex machina that fixes the damage we caused. Fusion for example is not a current solution. It's still in the research stage. With adequate funding we might be able to rush to a demo reactor in a decade or two. But by then the damage is done.…

I guess we do disagree. The way I think about it is what gets us to from point A to point B in the least amount of time is best. All other solutions aren’t real not the least because china and India aren’t going to play ball. Also because they aren’t 10x better than the rest (only solar is, just not enough to supply whole world) So we have to be develop something worthwhile and long lasting. Even more nuclear reactors in the meanwhile are a better solution. Predictions of gloom/doom have been around since the 1600s. Everybody in every generation says it’s different this time and it’s really over. I don’t mean to come across as this not being an important issue. I just don’t like the defense of if we don’t do something now we are screwed forever, forcing us to make bad decisions. I’ll take the other side of that bet any day. Predictions in complex systems are mostly wrong Because they don’t take into account future developments and see the world as static which it isn’t.

One more thing. The only reason fusion is 10-20 years away is because we are still focusing on failed technologies (wind and gas) and not throwing enough resources at fusion. If the government took a Los Alamos approach to fusion and nuclear energy in general we could be up and running in 5 years.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#192

Post by mikelyons »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #174
mikelyons wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that "cold hard facts" are what motivate human behavior, you are deeply ignorant of _critical_ aspects to understanding human behavior, working with humans, and solving human problems. You're not wrong or bad for this ignorance, we're all born into ignorance, it's the human condition.

It's pure delusion to think you can get everyone to band together to change the climate. We can't people to stop murdering each other, stealing, lying, or many other harmful things. You are arguing that propaganda is the solution to climate change. That manipulating people by appealing to their emotions will lower the carbon in the air. But, you are missing that whoever controls the best manipulation tactic decides t…

I'm trying to show you that in your cynicism you're talking a lot without saying anything. The purpose of life is to become utterly selfless and infinitely loving, but this is the highest consciousness, failing to do this is living hell. If the collective level of consciousness in humanity rises, we will be much better equipped to choose correctly as a collective organism. Those people who are polluting, murdering, lying (deliberate or ignorant), stealing, raping etc., they are not separate from you.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#193

Post by bromuro »

Will_Parker wrote: post #98
apo wrote: post #61

I'm sure the emotions are genuine, but articles like this leave me with a sense that those concerned are waiting for others (especially "leaders") to make something happen. They want electric cars to be mandated so they can continue their addiction to the automobile despite the severe environmental effects of car culture regardless of the fuel source. They want government to force companies to develop carbon neutral…

The trouble is, making sacrifices for yourself, as a voluntary moral choice, and just expecting other people to do the same is not going to be a successful strategy, because you're up against human nature itself. Any pragmatic strategy to reduce the impact of climate change must start with international cooperation. From the point of view of the USA, this must start with a new administration. Then, with this cooperat…

> making sacrifices for yourself, as a voluntary moral choice, and just expecting other people to do the same is not going to be a successful strategy, because you're up against human nature itself.

I have the opposite experience in my life so far (40yo), and I am a perpetrator of this “strategy”.

Ask yourself, for example, why the nature of humans is that hopeless for you. How are the humans around you? (also those in the news)

What if - before fixing earth - i fix myself? My circle of friends, of colleagues, the family... from my most intimate partner to the whole society it looks like a long way .

But I will be surprised how many humans can change for good, just because I was the one changing first.

it will never stop.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#194

Post by RobertRoberts »

c0nducktr wrote: post #190
RobertRoberts wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is any science that says smiling or telling a joke will alter the climate, I will be the first in line to admit my error. Otherwise, I will argue that emotions are directly linked to our personal health, but not the climate. It's an entirely different system that has no emotions.

Fuck man you're so god damn keen on missing the point, aren't you? Nobody's saying the climate has emotions. You're not going to fix anything without convincing people do act, and its more likely that you can convince people to act if you can connect with with on an emotional level, rather than just tell them the facts and saying what needs to be done. We've been telling people the facts for years and it's not done s…

I am not missing the point, fixing the climate has nothing to do with emotions of people either.

All a politician has to do is present a real solution, and you will have lots of support. That hasn't happened yet. It wasn't hard to get people to stop littering, because the leaders did something about it, and the followers followed.

It's a leadership issue, not a follower issue. So stop blaming the followers, and blame the leaders.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#195

Post by RobertRoberts »

IanCal wrote: post #187
RobertRoberts wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A false dichotomy is when two opposing views are expressed as the only options. I am comparing a real solution (science) with a phony one (emotions). Can a warm fuzzy doctor cure cancer with science? Yes. Can a warm fuzzy doctor cure cancer with emotions and no science? No. So, this is not a false dichotomy. The climate can not be changed by feeling different about it. Is there a solution to climate change that does…

You put up a false dichotomy because none of us are saying it's a choice between emotions and science. What they're talking about is how important emotions are when dealing with humans, and you need to deal with humans to solve this problem.

The climate issue would end tomorrow if the government made it illegal and started arresting people. So it's not a problem with the people.

It's a childish ploy to play with emotions, and you will end up with a childish solution playing this game.

Science has won over millions of people with the truth time and time again. To pretend like this issue can only be solved by emotions is a giant lie. We have history to demonstrate this.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#196

Post by RobertRoberts »

mikelyons wrote: post #192
RobertRoberts wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pure delusion to think you can get everyone to band together to change the climate. We can't people to stop murdering each other, stealing, lying, or many other harmful things. You are arguing that propaganda is the solution to climate change. That manipulating people by appealing to their emotions will lower the carbon in the air. But, you are missing that whoever controls the best manipulation tactic decides t…

I'm trying to show you that in your cynicism you're talking a lot without saying anything. The purpose of life is to become utterly selfless and infinitely loving, but this is the highest consciousness, failing to do this is living hell. If the collective level of consciousness in humanity rises, we will be much better equipped to choose correctly as a collective organism. Those people who are polluting, murdering, l…

I applaud your greater perspective and motive, but at the end of the day a very real course of action needs to happen. Do we turn right or turn left? That decision needs to be based on achieving a very real goal.

As adults we have to do things we don't like every day to achieve our goals. We have to choose things that make us unhappy and miserable so our kids have food. Emotions are more often our enemy than our friend.

Science and truth are always neutral, and must be the basis of decisions, unless you are going to agree that we must act like adults and tell everyone they need to chose misery to make a change.

I agree with that, but the people saying it aren't doing it first. That is hypocrisy and the worst form of leadership, and is the enemy of change. Therefore, until the current hypocrite leaders of climate change are replaced with honorable doers, nothing will change.

And shaming the followers into following hypocritical leaders is a recipe for disaster. Hypocrites have no moral base, and act to their own benefit, not yours, the planets only their own.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#197

Post by RobertRoberts »

IanCal wrote: post #188
RobertRoberts wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pure delusion to think you can get everyone to band together to change the climate. We can't people to stop murdering each other, stealing, lying, or many other harmful things. You are arguing that propaganda is the solution to climate change. That manipulating people by appealing to their emotions will lower the carbon in the air. But, you are missing that whoever controls the best manipulation tactic decides t…

We have absolutely done things which lower murder rates and theft though.

Have we done _nothing_ to improve the environment that effects the climate? Nothing at all?

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#198

Post by NeedMoreTea »

tomjen3 wrote: post #137
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The Allies fought and won WW2 without fascism. The UK had a coalition government of the two major parties for most of the war. We need a WW2 scale response, perhaps with similar restrictions like rationing - only this time of carbon or flights etc. Once some nations are active, others will join. Perhaps we need to see carbon and environmental impacts baked into import tariffs to "encourage" reluctant others to j…

The restrictions on freedom of speech, etc in the UK during WWII would easily be called facists today, and they are entirely incompatible with the US constitution. I would also argue that rationing in general is incompatible with a free country. If necessary add a fair tax that is ear-marked to deal with global warming and which ofsets the damage. No reason to add more bureaucracy.

Depends - All countries restrict speech, including the US, it's only the degree. US Supreme court felt restricting speech against the draft in WW1 was constitutional, and only overridden half a century later. Limiting freedom of speech somewhat is miles away from becoming fascist.

I don't see how rationing impacts a free country one way or another as it's merely a method of achieving a fair distribution of a limited resource. The US also had rationing in WW2, introduced after Pearl Harbor. Was the US still a free country?

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#199

Post by IanCal »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #195
IanCal wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put up a false dichotomy because none of us are saying it's a choice between emotions and science. What they're talking about is how important emotions are when dealing with humans, and you need to deal with humans to solve this problem.

The climate issue would end tomorrow if the government made it illegal and started arresting people. So it's not a problem with the people. It's a childish ploy to play with emotions, and you will end up with a childish solution playing this game. Science has won over millions of people with the truth time and time again. To pretend like this issue can only be solved by emotions is a giant lie. We have history to dem…

> The climate issue would end tomorrow if the government made it illegal and started arresting people. So it's not a problem with the people.

If the government made all CO2 emissions illegal tomorrow people wouldn't be able to go to work or feed their families, you'd have massive riots and the government would either change their minds or be thrown out.

> To pretend like this issue can only be solved by emotions is a giant lie.

Yet again, absolutely nobody is saying this.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#200

Post by adrianN »

bradlys wrote: post #185
adrianN wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewables have the benefit that they provide a gradual reduction in CO2 emissions that starts basically right now, compared to not reducing emissions at all until the reactors go online.

I think the scale required to do batteries + solar + wind is much greater than building nuclear power plants. I know that nuclear power plants are a large scale event but so is creating a factory to make PVs. Same with lithium mines. Same with refinement of that lithium. Now we're getting into having to create lots of steel for wind turbines too. In my mind, you get to the end in 10 years with nuclear. With solar, yo…

IMO the situation is dire enough that we should just follow both paths simultaneously. Build as much nuclear as we can, but also build as much renewables as we can.
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