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Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

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Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#161

Post by bradlys »

adrianN wrote: post #154
watbywbarif wrote: post #113

Sorry man, but all your hopes look pretty bad (as any other average eco-enthusiast hopes do). 1. Renewable energy (solar and wind mainly) is shitty mostly, not delivering, huge resources required, and huge backup battery/hydro storage required. SOLUTION = Nuclear 2. EV cars are junk, poorly packed energy, much less than gasoline per kg, giving bad range and big mass overhead to vehicle (meaning also bigger energy con…

We have about 10 years of emissions left if we want to stay below 2°. Building nuclear plants takes ten years on average, at the current rate of building them. If you wanted to suddenly build two or three orders of magnitude more, you'd first have to scale up the supply chain, e.g. for pressure vessels. There is not enough time left for a nuclear revolution.

And there's enough time for a solar or wind revolution?

It's not like solar panels come out of thin air either. Same with windmills...

To build solar or wind at the scale we need would be quite the "revolution". Probably even more so than nuclear because you'd have no way to store the energy unless you went absolutely mad with lithium mining and battery production. Which would also take years to scale.

Truth is - both options are difficult. But I think nuclear is a lot easier and it's surprising that it meets so much resistance all the time. It's much more like take a few square miles out of a few geographies and you get reliable power. Versus - miles and miles of solar panels (that you may or may not be able to fly over and are very prone to the weather of the day) or windmills (killing all the birds and not so great sound for anyone close). And then the battery farms you gotta spread around everywhere... Or have everyone purchase $5,000+ in batteries that have to be replaced every X years.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#162

Post by mnm1 »

It's hard to motivate oneself to act knowing the act is futile. I was a vegetarian for a decade and a half. What did that achieve for climate change (or unrelated for animal welfare)? Nothing. Because it's almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things especially when most greenhouse gas emissions come from the commercial sector by far. And especially when the commercial sector and political sector that's supposed to govern it aren't doing shit to solve this, especially in America. As another comment points out, we've had the solution for over half a century: nuclear. But we haven't done shit. That's the kind of action that could really help the situation. Other countries are doing a lot better but without collective action it's unlikely we can solve this in time, especially with the politicians in power in the US. In the US this is somehow a partisan issue because the people in power would prefer to kill most human beings on earth and a million other species rather than lose a little money on their fossile fuel investments.

On the scale in the linked article, I'm probably a four or five, but I'm also in my late thirties and don't plan to have kids. So while I stay informed, I don't worry. If I was younger or planned to have kids, I'd be fuming. It's unbelievable how badly our so called leaders, especially in the US have fucked us.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#163

Post by iron0013 »

krapp wrote: post #48
orange-juice wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

So you think the comment above that advocates for fascism is referring to the Italian political party? Or are you just trying to muddy the water about what fascism actually is and who is a fascist?

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#164

Post by kebman »

melling wrote: post #155
kebman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who stand ready to deny that cartoon too, though... :/ I mean, not even common sense insurance talk works on these guys. Here, kitty, kitty, insurance can save you (and me) from the cancer known as end of the world. No? You'd rather that we both die... Great...

"You'd rather that we both die... Great..." Nothing I said can be interpreted as saying this.

No. I completely agree with you. I'm just lamenting about the people I meet, who deny all this, outside logic.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#165

Post by RobertRoberts »

jonbronson wrote: post #65
RobertRoberts wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems rational discussion is not what people actually want. Hypocrisy is rampant in the discussion about climate change. Irrationality and emotions are manipulation tactics, not solutions, therefore nothing will actually change with the climate. The worst is when _real_ demonstrable solutions are presented and rejected because they don't "feel good" or make some kind of marketing splash.

Don't mistake a lack of empowerment with hypocrisy. When someone advocates for policy to limit the emissions of vehicles produced by the automotive industry, but happens to drive their car to work everyday, that's not hypocrisy. That's a person who is coping with the system around them, still advocating to change that system in the only way that is meaningful. Systemic changes require large actions. To pretend that i…

I agree on your automotive analogy. But what about these?

1. Have fewer kids. (but only some countries)

2. Don't fly so much. (but we can fly anytime we want in our private planes)

3. Per capita pollution needs to go down. (but not for us and our private planes)

4. You need to lower carbon emissions by changing your purchasing habits. (but we can buy private yachts and multiple homes)

5. Use paper straws in plastic bags. (instead of plastic straws in paper bags)

6. Take action to prevent carbon increase (but only things we approve of (ie, no planting trees...))

etc...

It seems that the loudest and biggest hypocrites are the rich and powerful.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#166

Post by RobertRoberts »

damnyou wrote: post #77
RobertRoberts wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want to feel better about the climate? Or actually fix it? I'd rather have a cold hard doctor that fixes my cancer, than feel good about dying.

Why are you presenting a false dichotomy?

A false dichotomy is when two opposing views are expressed as the only options. I am comparing a real solution (science) with a phony one (emotions).

Can a warm fuzzy doctor cure cancer with science? Yes.

Can a warm fuzzy doctor cure cancer with emotions and no science? No.

So, this is not a false dichotomy. The climate can not be changed by feeling different about it.

Is there a solution to climate change that does not involve science? I would argue no.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#167

Post by trehalose »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #67
throwaway5752 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to sound harsh, but you're wrong because you're missing the point, and badly. The author talks about cancer diagnoses. This is an apt analogy, and there is a huge body of science for helping individuals cope with personal tragedy. Global warming is a global and personal tragedy. People will have their livelihoods ruined, and people will die. People already have, but (since this is a anglophile community)…

Do you want to feel better about the climate? Or actually fix it? I'd rather have a cold hard doctor that fixes my cancer, than feel good about dying.

There is a large body of evidence that a warm soft doctor is more likely to actually try and succeed to fix your cancer than a cold hard doctor.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/should_we_trai... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wps.20146 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2014.0045... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21300514 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21248604

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#168

Post by mikelyons »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #25
alexandercrohde wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It really touches on the emotional aspects of it, which I think really need to be discussed. When I picture why certain family members have a hard time accepting the reality of global warming, it certainly comes down to difficulty grappling with emotions, not a hard review of the literature. Recognizing emotions as part of the problem and solution feels like a big step.

>Recognizing emotions as part of the problem and solution feels like a big step. I think this is actually the worst thing we can do. Science is facts, cold hard facts. If you want to get rid of the science and focus on emotions, then the solutions to the _real_ problem will get distorted.

If you believe that "cold hard facts" are what motivate human behavior, you are deeply ignorant of _critical_ aspects to understanding human behavior, working with humans, and solving human problems. You're not wrong or bad for this ignorance, we're all born into ignorance, it's the human condition.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#169

Post by RobertRoberts »

trehalose wrote: post #167
RobertRoberts wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want to feel better about the climate? Or actually fix it? I'd rather have a cold hard doctor that fixes my cancer, than feel good about dying.

There is a large body of evidence that a warm soft doctor is more likely to actually try and succeed to fix your cancer than a cold hard doctor. https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/should_we_trai... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wps.20146 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2014.0045... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21300514 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2124860…

If there is any science that says smiling or telling a joke will alter the climate, I will be the first in line to admit my error.

Otherwise, I will argue that emotions are directly linked to our personal health, but not the climate. It's an entirely different system that has no emotions.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#170

Post by bryanlarsen »

air7 wrote: post #157

I feel that a major part of the problem is misguided activism. I'll give one example. IMO, the solution to the energy problem is obvious: Nuclear. Nuclear is the safest, cleanest, and most stable form of energy production we have right now. It really works great. We should close all coal/gas plants and replace them with nuclear plants asap. Nuclear's best feature is that it produces no carbon to the atmosphere, and r…

You were very right 10 years ago. Two things have changed in the last decade:

- the price of wind and solar and batteries have dropped dramatically, making them price competitive with coal and vastly cheaper than nuclear.

- we're running out of time. We need to get these plants active within a decade and nuclear plants take longer than that to build. We've lost the institutional knowledge on how to build them.

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