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Why are debut novels failing to launch?

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Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#201

Post by archon1410 »

frutiger wrote: post #135
hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Don't expect anyone to read what you wrote, much less commercial success, unless you were a Harvard undergrad English prodigy who joined Penguin publishing, or somehow wiggled into the circle of [City] Review of [Each Others'] Books. It's a one-way, time-traveling message in a bottle comprised of dead trees. Doing it for art is a wolf's howl that it lived and that it could. Although, it's gradually shifted i…

> It's a one-way, time-traveling message in a bottle So too is DNA in children. You don’t get to choose the entirety of the message but you do get to choose the half of the lottery that they must receive. And that message is likely to far outlive any message in any dead tree or electronic book.

> And that message is likely to far outlive any message in any dead tree or electronic book.

Berkeley News: Bottlenecks that reduced genetic diversity were common throughout human history (https://news.berkeley.edu/2022/06/23/bottlenecks-that-reduce...)

Perhaps the assertion is true in the sense that an average, mediocre person will have a better chance of having his genetic line survive than writing something that immoratalises him in history, like Newton or Pascal. But But if one has the ability, the latter might be a safer option...

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#202

Post by richk449 »

nottorp wrote: post #113
thaumasiotes wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> James Patterson (Enterprises) has about a quarter of the new novel space, and Tom Clancy (RIP) has maybe a tenth. It's all about the brand. There's an obvious reason for that: far and away the primary determinant - often the sole determinant - of whether you will like a novel, is the author.

That's sad, because once an author achieves some notoriety, they are basically stuck into writing the same thing for the rest of their career, for fear that they will lose their existing audience.

Is that why John Irving keeps writing about bears and high school wrestling?

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#203

Post by mattgreenrocks »

ghaff wrote: post #163
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same experience for me in another domain (indie apps). I’m okay with getting better at marketing, and allowing for the possibility of lack of product market fit. I’m less okay with believing I have to become Extremely Online to “build my personal brand,” just to have a chance at launching things successfully. That’s some bullshit that they peddle to justify their own addiction. It’s learned helplessness to platforms.

You have to promote somehow. No one is going to do it for you for free. You can hire a publicist, take out advertising, speak at events, etc. and none of those probably count as "social media" but they're neither effort nor cost-free.

Yeah. So my journey's figuring out the way that works well for me. The goal of indie dev for me is to use the computer less ultimately.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#204

Post by ghaff »

api wrote: post #166
BarryMilo wrote: post #53

I'm currently starting a publishing company in a niche Canadian market. What people in these comments (and really, most places on the internet) fail to grasp is the role of the publisher as a curator and editor. Unlike your friends, the editor is not your friend. They don't have a stake in your ego, they won't sugarcoat it beyond the veneer of professionalism. You need an editor who is not your friend, too say no to…

If I were writing a book I’d definitely consider a real publisher but before that I’d be tempted to pay someone independent to be an editor and be bad cop. A student or remote worker with literary chops would do that as a first pass. Pay them to tell me what about my book sucks before wasting an editors time with a submission.

I'm not sure to what degree I'd trust a student or random online gig worker to give a really useful editorial option. Copy-editing or maybe technical edit? Possibly. I used an intern who worked for a magazine editor I knew to copyedit a book once and that worked fine. But I wasn't looking for substantive structural work. In fairness, I didn't really get that when I went through a publisher either. The second edition was IMO a lot better but that was because I personally came to see where the first edition was stronger and weaker.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#205

Post by AlbertCory »

api wrote: post #199
AlbertCory wrote: post #52

I used the public library to get a lot of books that I'd never want to waste my money on. You can call it "market research." Verdict: there just isn't a market for serious fiction like there was 70 years ago, say. J.D. Salinger considered himself a failure until he finally got a story in The New Yorker . How many writers dream of that nowadays? Then there's Esquire, of course : https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/376…

My impression is that a good novel today being turned into a series or screenplay is what huge scale novel success used to be. Huge scale success with just a book is very rare, though there are some writers who find a niche audience. The thing I decry is the worthless idle attention suck of “social” media. That competes with all forms of quality art and content. Instead of watching good movies or listening to music o…

Yep. Reading "the current thing some imbecile said" instead of "the best that has been thought and said."

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#206

Post by ghaff »

intuitionist wrote: post #190

One thing that saddens me about the perceived necessity of new authors going on Twitter, BookTok, etc. to “build an audience” is that it seems to prevent anyone who wants to separate their literary life from their private life from ever again being supported by a publisher. Many authors over the years have felt the need to do this, for personal or professional reasons: J.D. Salinger, Thomas Pynchon, James Tiptree Jr.…

I don't know. This is sort of arguing that a world in which publishers were gatekeepers/PR agencies/etc. meant that authors could sort of hide behind that front--at the cost of putting their fate in the hands of their publisher.

But I'm not sure how widespread/true that ever was. Authors went on book tours and TV shows all the time to promote their writing. I'm not sure how common the pseudonymous/reclusive successful author ever was.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#207

Post by ghaff »

bane wrote: post #76
WalterBright wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "secondary" film and TV markets are so starved for good new ideas There's a long list of very good scifi that has never been made into a movie. Instead, we get the Mandalorean which rehashes every spaghetti western trope. The character even sounds like Clint Eastwood. It has the hero breaking in the horse while the old ranch hand leans on the corral fence, for example. And training the village to defend itself…

I wish I could describe the near physical pain I feel that "Rendezvous with Rama" isn't yet a great Denise Villeneuve movie, and the "Night's Dawn Trilogy" isn't yet a multi-season series on Apple TV. The list goes on.

Rendezvous with Rama is basically a travelogue. I enjoyed it well enough but there are probably 100s of SF books/stories I would choose to adapt to film before that one. But we'll see. I may well be wrong but the necessary adaptations probably won't be loved by fans.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#208

Post by Der_Einzige »

badpun wrote: post #126
WalterBright wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had enough of the Dune remakes, too. The world doesn't need more Planet That Went Ape remakes, either. The Mote in God's Eye would make a fine miniseries.

Planet of The Apes remakes are not movies, they're just a way to reliably turn 200 million dollars into 300 million dollars - similarly to all the American comic book crap. As long as the multiplier stays above 1.0, the process will continue.

Glad to see this stuff called out for being low quality here. I prefer the term "capeshit".

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#209

Post by pjlegato »

spondylosaurus wrote: post #31
japhib wrote: post #7

Seems like almost every creative industry (music, video games, art, writing) is having the same issue: Creation & publication tools are getting cheaper & easier to use, which means a lot more people can publish their creative ideas. With such a huge number of choices, discovery is now the issue. IMO discovery of what is truly high quality is still an unsolved problem. Seems like recommendation systems generally just…

Trusted (human) reviewers and critics are more important than ever to me. Like you said, lists of whatever's popular or trending are just... things that are trending. For good reasons or otherwise. Meanwhile if I read a Richard Brody review I get a sense of whether a movie might be worth watching—even though we don't have identical taste, I've learned a lot about his, and now I know how his taste translates into revi…

The problem with that arrangement is that it doesn't scale: a tiny number of popular critics become the gatekeepers. Success in the field then depends entirely on somehow gaining the notice -- and good reviews -- of one of these few critics.

Countless other pieces of art are never noticed by anyone, countless talented artists are forced into day jobs and eventually abandon art -- no matter how high quality (for whatever definition of "quality" you prefer) -- simply because they were not able to catch the attention of one of the elite critics, for a variety of reasons, almost all unrelated to the quality of the work itself.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#210

Post by Der_Einzige »

bowsamic wrote: post #129
defrost wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social Realism and Lolicon aren't genres ?

1. No, they aren't forms of genre fiction 2. Middlemarch isn't social realism. If you had to put a label on it, it would be psychological fiction a la Stephen King 3. Lolita is DEFINITELY not lolicon (if anything it's the opposite) and it's quite offensive to suggest it is The point is, OP is complaining about not liking reading, but if he's only read sci-fi, he hasn't read the classics

In regards to 3, It might as well be. It's a sick novel for sick people, and I can't believe that it's read in high schools.

Somehow we still read Marquees De Sade too even though everything he wrote is more depraved than most of what goes on 4chan today.

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