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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#201

Post by Bayart »

nix23 wrote: post #164
lenkite wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please let the EU develop its own standing military force independent of NATO and US. It's truly about time this happened. We need a third counterpart to China and the USA.

No please, i don't want a big German directed army again. But something like NATO but just for Europa..that would be a good idea.

Why would a European army be directed by Germans ? They're notoriously incompetent in military affairs. They don't have the personnel nor the expertise required to take control of the army to begin with.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#202

Post by Tangokat »

The question is: Did the NSA spy on Danish companies for political reasons or industrial espionage reasons?

I think the former is to be expected while the latter is not.

As an aside.. say the NSA finds out some great industrial espionage info.. how do they actually give the information to the correct US companies? Drop a USB stick in front of the CEOs door?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#203

Post by RobertoG »

cturner wrote: post #182
RobertoG wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations [..]" This is a list of military spending by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_... If you count only France and Germany they spend already more than Russia. The European Union together spend more money in defense that any other country in the world except the USA (and around the same that China). So, what's the reason…

Among reasons for the American spend (1) it helps to support the nuclear non-proliferation cause, and has historically been used to dissuade Australia and Japan and South Korea and West Germany from creating their own nuclear weapons programs; (2) because the US has historically guaranteed northern Europe against a USSR tank invasion, though this may no longer be relevant; (3) the US is security guarantor for much of…

>>" it helps to support the nuclear non-proliferation cause [..]"

The non-proliferation cause it's another way of saying "we are the only one that should have nuclear capability". It doesn't look like to me that the USA is interested in a world without nuclear weapons (1), only in a world where the others don't have nuclear weapons.

>>"If Europe is not freeloading, why was there so much negative reaction by European leaders to Trump reducing presence in Europe? Surely this should be celebrated!"

If the problem is freeloading and defense, instead of "business", why being against spending the money in European military industry?

I notice that you don't address the question that Europe already spend more than Russia.

I think you forgot your links in your answer.

(1) - https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/02/politics/nuclear-treaty-i...

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#204

Post by [deleted] »

_lbaq wrote: post #144
cturner wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loosely I agree with commenters remarking that the Cold War is over. (Though not the disrespect for the Russian capability. That is a country that still knows how to fight a war.) But if not for Russia, why does Europe need a military? To get strategic independence from the US? In that case, where is the money? Why the howling about Trump wanting to reduce the US contribution? And how is the command going to work? Th…

>why does Europe need a military? Why does the US need a military? Canada? Mexico? Its a global world, EU as one of the biggest blocks needs its own military for many reasons. Its time to cut the reliance of the US, but remain very close allies. If defense spending is done right, purchased locally by local companies, a lot of the money circles back into the economy.

[deleted]

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#205

Post by SilentBan »

elmo2you wrote: post #139
thefounder wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Russia already anexed Crimea and is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. You may not find Ukraine enough European for you to count. Next: other Eastern European countries. Next: the baltic countries.

> Well Russia already annexed Crimea .. Yet another show of either (willful) ignorance or (intentional) peddling of (Western) propaganda. People may think whatever they want about what happened to Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, but to called that an annexation (or an invasion, as many have) is disingenuous as best. It's no secret (in fact, it's on public record) that it was the USA who pumped copious amounts of money in…

You are fooling noone Russian rat. The biggest mistake the West did was not fully getting being Germany in their Anti-Bolshevik crusade to exterminate your lot.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#206

Post by somesortofsystm »

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

It factually doesn't matter which citizenship one holds.

An under-utilized protest mechanism exists in the fact that citizenships can change. Most modern republics allow for this.

>It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted

It cannot happen until and unless citizens inform themselves, and most of all: strive to remain informed.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#207

Post by JumpCrisscross »

throwaway4good wrote: post #118
coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

> France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia

On its homeland. France has limited excess ability to project power to e.g. Lithuania. Or Greenland.

About 10,000 troops abroad to Russia's nearly 50,000. (Though an advantage in carriers.)

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#208

Post by paganel »

Bayart wrote: post #197
paganel wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with an European Army is that the French or the Italians or even the Germans won't send their young men to die at the Eastern border in order to defend Poland or Romania, it's as simple as that (see also the "phoney war" that only ended when Nazi Germany actually decided to invade France and the Benelux). The Americans inspire a little more trust, even though they live half a world away (maybe because of…

>The problem with an European Army is that the French or the Italians or even the Germans won't send their young men to die at the Eastern border in order to defend Poland or Romania, it's as simple as that What makes you think that ? I often read those sorts of reactions from Eastern Europeans (yes, yes, I know Poland is in « Central Europe ») but that's just giving us intentions we don't have. One other trope is fr…

> What makes you think that ?

Most recently Macron's overtures towards Russia, so much so that even the Financial Times [1] felt the need the to blame it in one of its opinion pieces, and that is saying something (they generally are pretty neutral to "liberal" European leaders like Macron, even more so when they happen to be former investment bankers).

> One other trope is framing the desire for a European Army as a master plan to sell more French weaponry.

That does indeed happen and it's an active concern, one of the scandals that is about to erupt here in Romania is of the Romanian Army buying military stuff without following proper procurement procedures directly from an US company (via some Swiss and Israeli intermediaries/shell companies, depending on how you look at them). The French are fuming because apparently they were in contention for that contract, too.

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/168243c2-bac4-404c-843a-ca1f61196...

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#209

Post by ccakes »

blackrock wrote: post #77
SirHound wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be a problem? It’s our job merely to make that difficult (ie not using Chinese equipment in your new 5G network)

Plot twist: Huawei hardware is more secure than American hardware. We all know that Cisco equipment has already been compromised by the NSA. And that all the major American tech companies are in collusion with the federal government. What we don’t know yet, is how secure Chinese built hardware and software is.

And the reason the US is pushing such a strong anti-China narrative is so they don’t lose their backdoor into all those juicy networks

half-wink-half-sad-face.jpg

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#210

Post by nix23 »

Bayart wrote: post #201
nix23 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No please, i don't want a big German directed army again. But something like NATO but just for Europa..that would be a good idea.

Why would a European army be directed by Germans ? They're notoriously incompetent in military affairs. They don't have the personnel nor the expertise required to take control of the army to begin with.

>They're notoriously incompetent in military affairs

True, but the biggest payer has the biggest voice.

https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/705...

Germany pays more then double as much then France.

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