Earlier quoted context omitted.
Development abilities would entail having the ability to take a task, or feature, write code around that task or feature including tests, and then submit a PR. As someone doing the hiring for such things, people looking to get hired seem to have a different view of things. I don't need someone with an advanced degree in CS and mastery of algorithms to produce API endpoints and orchestration bits. As for having softwa…
> Development abilities would entail having the ability to take a task, or feature, write code around that task or feature including tests, and then submit a PR. No dissonance from my end, and I'd say that other than the very narrow overlap of being able to "write code", that's quite distinct from what, for example, my Ops skills are. To be fair, I did think of some other potential relatively narrow overlaps, such as…
Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
201–208 of 208 posts
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not my understanding of the term DevOps. Rather, DevOps means using version-controlled artifacts for deployment rather than manual deployment or one-off scripts, and to consider those artifacts a "product" in their own right, or part of the main development artifacts. So that qualified devs could create/edit those along with other developer artifacts, though frequently these artifacts are created by admin-like…
The buzzwords are ultimately meaningless but that sounds more specific to ”infrastructure as code” than the meaning of “devops”. With iaac basically being one of the facets of devops. Does that sound right to you?
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
No disagreement here. There are, however, a number of people in the field that are all ops and have no development abilities. There is less and less of a need for those kinds of people. This has been hashed about at length, but the inverse is also true. Developers must learn to operate their software in production.
> There are, however, a number of people in the field that are all ops and have no development abilities. There is less and less of a need for those kinds of people. I very strongly disagree, unless what you mean by "no development abilities" is merely an inability (or refusal) to write or modify (maybe debug) code. There is here, what I believe, a very important distinction, that is routinely lost, and has all but t…
My main worry is that specialization won't return soon and my Ops skills won't be enough to keep me employed.
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not that. The tech is not a solution for everyone's problems to begin with. It's a purely commercial tech made in an attempt to compete with Amazon and sell you stuff. It's very lock-iny, expensive to leave and is crippled on purpose, to make you buy services from Google. Barrier of entry for competition is high too, so it will be pricey.
What features of Kubernetes are only available for a price? Since Kubernetes is fully open source and self hosted/available from any cloud provider now, how is it crippled?
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#205Sorry but this article implies that containers can solve issues like the difference between path separators on Windows and Linux. They can't even solve issues arising from differences in kernal versions, not to mention operating systems.
Nor does Docker protect against such obvious things as differences in versions of base images. Check out the Slack dialogue at the end of this: http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/docker-protects-a-pro...
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There are, however, a number of people in the field that are all ops and have no development abilities. There is less and less of a need for those kinds of people. I very strongly disagree, unless what you mean by "no development abilities" is merely an inability (or refusal) to write or modify (maybe debug) code. There is here, what I believe, a very important distinction, that is routinely lost, and has all but t…
I've been doing Ops for 20 years and even back in the 90's I barely had to understand what a Make file was doing. I've certainly never had to do much actual dev work. My main worry is that specialization won't return soon and my Ops skills won't be enough to keep me employed.
> I've been doing Ops for 20 years and even back in the 90's I barely had to understand what a Make file was doing. I've certainly never had to do much actual dev work.
Although I ended up being pretty comfortable with Make, I wouldn't characterize what I did with it as actual dev work, either. The vast majority was tweaks of existing makefiles to get them to work on new platforms.
I'm not sure even the devs I worked with back then had as much exposure to Make as did the release engineers (part of QA).
> My main worry is that specialization won't return soon and my Ops skills won't be enough to keep me employed.
The latter part may end up being true regardless, in which case Ops skills will eventually be lost, to the detriment of the industry.
I doubt it, however, because even in the vast majority of Devops-as-a-title job postings, no matter how much emphasis is placed on automation, building internal tools, CI/CD, "dev", or "infrastructure as code", Ops skills (some of which those arguably were or overlap with) are still key. Otherwise, they'd just be hiring developers and having them perform these functions [1].
All that said, I don't know what the right answer is for staying employable.
I know it's not merely waiting for (a subset of) skills from the 90s to become valuable enough again. That would be doubling-down on what might be too narrow a specialization. However, even making sure one has at least some expertise in as broad range of Ops skills as possible, including networking, databases, and especially enough coding to enable routine (if basic) automation, may not be enough.
Maybe the answer is acquire just enough dev skills to get hired into those hybrid roles and then either wait until the Ops part becomes important enough to be full time or deliver so much more value with Ops than dev that the latter responsibilities get transferred to someone else. I have, so far, not done this, both because it feels slightly dishonest and because, like in the footnoted situation, I fear it leads to lower productivity/quality on the Ops side.
[1] Judging by some comments I've seen here, this also happens but has not yielded a large set of examples of successful outcomes (including keeping those developers happy and productively developing)
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the same process that was done with J2EE and Application Servers, it starts out with a _simple_ standard to have a Java application served with a standard API, and then it grows out of control. You are already seeing it with Itsio and Helm being layered on top. Today you might be able to get the stock Kubernetes up without much assistance, but give it a few years as "features" get added on.
I'm not seeing that and I'm pretty sure we won't. it's extremely hard to get new features in the core of kubernetes and in fact it's moving to a micro services architecture. Neither helm or istio are part of the core.
Kubernetes is more than what's in the Kubernetes core GitHub repo, it's the collection of tools that go along with Kubernetes that "average users" expect to just be there. For example, an ingress controller, helm, likely soon cert-manager and external-dns too.
The split out into multiple projects actually makes the landscape harder. Where by people and distributions have to make choices about the set of expected vs set of provided features.
A great example of this I saw was an internal thread here at SUSE (I work on their Kubernetes product) where ingress controllers were being compared. Despite the Ingress data model actually being in the core, features like nginx-ingress-controllers ability to do arbitrary TCP and UDP ports on the same external-IP were being seen as a reason to choose that controller over some of the others. I can't argue the feature is useless, because it's not - it's very useful - but it's a great example of how things can very easily become conflated, even for people who should know better! A feature being part of the core just means it's part of a minimal Kubernetes deployment, while a complete Kubernetes deployment includes much more than core.
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#208We're in the process of migrating our (primarily) java services from straight AWS to kubernetes. At the beginning the author poses the following questions: * Do you use Mac, Windows, or Linux? Have you ever faced an issue related to \ versus / as the file path separator? What version of JDK do you use? Do you use Java 10 in development, but production uses JRE 8? Have you faced any bugs introduced by JVM differences?…
Hm. My team is running and developing a somewhat complex system based on jvm for years, and never encountered any of the issues in the bullet points. Having consistent test, staging and production environments produced by ansible have been working out for us (and is not hard). Are we just being lucky?
But For various reasons, political, personal, technical etcetera, consistent, accessible test environments were not available. It was a huge bottleneck for developers.
This is why docker was so appealing: it allowed devs to circumvent the political and technical issues. We didn’t have to justify provisioning more instances, since we could just use docker compose to run stacks on local machines.
So I’m that sense, the choice and it’s benefits arose from non technical hurdles.