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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

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201–210 of 437 posts

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#201
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

Not saying it's true for you, but everyone I knew at college that was working full-time was in my opinion getting far less out of college than they would have. You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Having to grind insane hours just to get in the game might be workable for the very dedicated and tough, but it's certainly not an optimal experience, and something we should strive to make not necessary.

I found that my full-time job as a student allowed me to test lessons I learned in the classroom, or to at least see their application in real settings. I never met anyone in college who used their free time to ponder. People fill up their free time, one way or the other. Then they ponder during their busy time.

Having to grind to get in the game sounds like real life. An education that does not prepare you for real life is of questionable value.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#202

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

> Veterinarian programs specific limit how many students they accept, because if they didn't, their graduates wouldn't be able to afford a living wage. Other majors need to catch on. Medical schools do the same thing, but that's also what's causing a burden on the medical system. I truly blame most of the medical expense increases in the U.S. on them and medicare (which sets a base price and everyone else must make u…

Vets can easily make 100k+ in rural areas where the median wage is in the 20s or 30s. You could double the number of vet grads and vets would still be able to make a comfortable living.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#203
post #167
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, my HS counselor, in speeches to students at assemblies (c.1999), was constantly saying "It doesn't matter which college you go to, but you absolutely must get a degree."

Same here, they even went so far as to say it didn’t even matter what you studied! That is why you should never take career advice from someone who ended up as a careers adviser....

Not sure if joking, but I agree, in a general sense. For skills above a certain level/specialization, I don't like the idea of a "full time, career teacher". In order to really ground the lessons/advice they're giving, they need to be a practicioner[1] too -- otherwise, your questions will get answered with "... that's what the book says" or some rationalization of some idiosyncratic ritual they favor. That doesn't impart a real understanding.

For a HS counselor, that would mean they also work as a career counselor outside to tell people whether or what jobs to change to, or to stay at their current one.

I wouldn't apply that to core education, as there are no e.g. professional adders, but you get the the picture.

I could go on, but that's a topic for another day, I guess.

[1] a retired or former practicioner would suffice here too

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is to not prevent people from getting art history degrees - just to make all art history courses in the US artificially limit the number of students they take in to match the actual demand. So if someone's super passionate about art history and is also able to meet the (presumably) more stringent entry criteria, they will still be able to get that degree.

Or maybe let people pay for Art History degrees if they want to. And the free program should be based on Merit, and career demand.

Scholarships. That's the concept you're grasping for.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#205

This is a nothing article, the fact that it completely leaves out what degrees are being obtained invalidates it to me. It says that a college graduate makes only ~$3,000 more a year on average than a high school graduate? With how hard they are dissing degrees, I assume they are talking about some worthless degree like liberal arts. "Why do employers demand a degree for jobs that don’t require them?" > This is a com…

> It's not actually a requirement, it's there for formality.

This simply isn't true a lot of the time. It is sometimes, but there are plenty of jobs that require highschool level skills but will filter out those who don't have a degree just because they can. It's not that big a deal if you select one candidate over the other because the former has done a 2 week internship that made no difference in the qualifications, but did signal some small extra thing that gave the candidate the edge. It's not okay if a diploma gives a candidate the edge structurally, despite being useless for the required job skills, and costs $40k for the individual to get. That's an insane price we expect people to pay just to compete for a job.

> No respectable tech employer cares

It's not just that. It's the fact the vast majority of jobs are obtained through your network. Class and race are just proxies for the probability that a person has a weak network within a high-socioeconomic-class industry like tech or finance. It's not necessarily a claim of blatant classism or racism by the employer, but rather that your mom not knowing an uncle with a position for you, or dad not showing you you need to do this internship and that volunteer project and apply to that program to get recruited, or growing up with friends who became plumbers and whose parents were plumbers too, is not as conducive to landing a job as others with similar intelligence/credentials but a different class background/upbringing/network is.

That having been said, I agree with your other points. These articles get a bit tiresome. As always the answer is, it depends. College can be worth it, but not for everyone and not by doing anything.

It sort of amazes me sometimes to speak to people who just never ran any of the numbers. It should be mandatory for student loan applications to be data-driven. i.e. any college in a state should be able to go to the state educational board and obtain annual data for every accredited program or at least workfield, and use that for the loan programs. So for example, the state could track the average salary at 1, 5 and 10 years for an Art History major. Plug that into a loan calculator. Then plug in the loan payments. And then offer a comparative view, compared to not going to college, community college and other majors in college. And then a student has to read through all of that and make a conscious decision that yes, I'm going to borrow $50k, have an estimated payback time of 45 years old and earn no more than minimum wage and be expected to have a >50% chance of not being employed as an art historian in the first place. I'm seeing this kind of data take off a little bit, but it's still pretty poor and some universities skew the numbers. Government should do more to standardise these things and mandate universities and students use them.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#206

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

No thanks to the gate keeping.

Let's do the opposite instead, and make it as easy as possible for people to get into tech at least.

The moment a tech Union or professional organaizion like this appears, and starts to try and implement policies like this is the moment I fight as hard as I can to destroy said institution.

If you want to argue that less useful majors that have worse jobs prospects, should be harder to get in whatever way, I could maybe agree with that. (IE loans are harder to get or whatever).

What I cannot agree with is the philosophy of some private org given out a limited supply of certifications, to protect it's own members. IE, the American medical association as applied to tech, or whatever.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#207

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

I tend to shy away from UBI in favor of something like a guaranteed federal jobs program.

My fear is that UBI will tempt policy makers to cut social programs. "We gave you money, buy your own medical insurance". With guaranteed jobs we can put more work into our infrastructure while eliminating unemployment, which helps keep fair labor practices in the forefront of employer's minds.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Most of the kids going to college are not mature enough to do any of the above (come on, these are 17 year olds going 30k into debt for their first year alone.) The 'college experience' today is partying / drinking yourself into a stupor and amassing a ton of debt. No, not everyone, but for most that's reality.

I agree. My own daughter will be going into the Air Force in a couple of years. She's not one that would do well in the college environment. She fits in best where she is a part of something bigger than herself where there is guidance and discipline (like most kids). If she goes in at 18 after high school, she can earn a degree in 2.5 years at night in the Air Force. After her first 4 years she can choose to get out,…

The military could be a good choice for some people, but I don't know if I'd call it a great gig.

Out of all the 10 or so people I know fairly well who are active duty or former military (Marines, Air Force, and Navy, I don't think I know any Army people unless you count National Guard).

2 have serious PTSD.

1 of those, my neighbor, was just arrested for forging pain med prescriptions--he got hooked after he was seriously wounded in combat.

4 received medical discharges from health issues directly caused by their military service (out of combat). Sure they get monthly payments, but they'd all rather not have the injuries.

All of them have spent considerable time deployed, and most of them have had serious family issues because they were away for so long.

All of their deployments were dangerous. One of my Air Force friends is a jet engine mechanic, but told me that they pulled the Marine guards out of where he was stationed, so they gave him an M16 (or maybe it was an M4, not sure what they were using at the time) and made him do guard duty.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#209
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in…

> I really want my doctor to actually have an MD How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? “Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”

I fully agree with the US decision. I want my MDs to pass some baseline aptitude set by US regulation and if a governing board decides a country cannot meet that then those doctors need to re-apply.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#210

College is probably a great thing for some people, but it's been oversold. It's not the destination, it's just one way of getting there. One reason why it's so easy to sell, is that college is a near universal experience for the middle and upper classes, and being an expensive experience, people credit it with much of the personal growth that happens in one's early 20s. They also credit it with making them good at th…

I'm sure some can learn just as well on their own as in college, but that is really not the main benefit of it. The main benefit is that the people at your college are self-selecting: they have similar interests as you do, they have similar ambition, they have similar abilities. If this college is a good one, you are going to meet more brilliant, fun, and engaging people in your 4 years than you would in almost any other scenario. Those people you meet will not only make a huge impact on your own development as a person, but will continue to do so long after you are no longer together. They will expose you to a million things you would never be exposed to otherwise. On top of that, the intensity of the experience (from living together, being on campus together, going to parties together, etc.) is simply not comparable to more than a handful of similar options.

Yes, you could stay home, or move elsewhere, and be one of a handful of people like yourself. Or you could go and be surrounded by thousands of brilliant, amazing people for years of the most formative years of your life.

The benefit of going to a good school isn't the classes, it's the people.

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