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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#201

Post by olegkikin »

dgut wrote: post #180
olegkikin wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catalonia is not a tribe. It's 7.5 million people. Which is orders of magnitude more than the Vatican, for instance. It's more people than the population of Denmark, Finland, Ireland, and many other EU countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics

The nationalist narrative is tribal though, they do consider themselves a separate ethnicity.

Who is "they" exactly? We're talking about millions of people. I'm pretty sure there's a wide spectrum of reasons and opinions.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#202

Post by monort »

throwaway76543 wrote: post #153
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure? Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

What's wrong with a city-state? We still have a few left from the old time!

It's weird that everyone wants a large monopoly not a lot of smaller competing governments.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#203

Post by paulddraper »

ghaff wrote: post #197
paulddraper wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what the Confederate States of America did. That line of thinking is very unpopular, at least in the US since that time.

No. And I don't think any US state would seriously contemplate secession today however polarized politics are. That said, if any state or group of states did overwhelmingly want to breakaway from the US, it seems unlikely that there would be meaningful support for the federal government to go to war to stop them.

There have been the Calexit movement [1] and various movements in Texas [2]. Texas in particular has some substantial poll numbers.

Given that states rights are far less than they were in the 19th century, I expect the US government to be even more likely to prevent succession in the infinitesimal chance it would happen.

[1] http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#204

Post by fauigerzigerk »

ino wrote: post #185
notspanishflu wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. The sovereignty of Catalonia falls on theirs (if they wish so).

One way to look at it is that the sovereign country of Spain has a right to split itself up in two countries. Therefore all Spaniards should have a say.

Another way to look at it is that every sub-entity of any country has a right to unilaterally declare itself independent for whatever reason (often because it is wealthier).

I think neither of these views is sufficient. We have to accept that this is a tricky question that is very difficult to solve in a principled way.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#205

Post by Mithaldu »

notspanishflu wrote: post #135
breischl wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not clearer, at least to me. >All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards. This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?

All Spaniards have the right, not only a part of Spaniards (like those living in Catalonia).

You're advocating making the people in Catalonia prisoners to the rest of Spain.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#206

Post by Mithaldu »

notspanishflu wrote: post #49
Joeri wrote: post #5

If this were happening in russia, the EU leaders would have loudly condemned the human rights violations. The silence from them now is shameful.

If this was happening in Russia, nobody would say nothing because there is nothing to say. German police in the last G20 (Hamburg) was more violent, for example.

> German police in the last G20 (Hamburg) was more violent, for example.

Not even remotely.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#207

Post by throwaway76543 »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #189
throwaway76543 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure? Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

There is no flaw. If a group of people doesn't want to be governed by a certain body they should have the right to secede. A government derives it's right to rule by the people accepting this rule. Obviously this is a really hard problem and it opens up the door for all kind of abuses, but ultimately democracy demands that. Democracy first needs a demos. A group of people who feel connected by whatever reason they li…

You declare "there is no flaw" and then you proceed to describe it in detail.

Surely you can see the flaw in this new line of reasoning as well?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#208

Post by fauigerzigerk »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #189
throwaway76543 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure? Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

There is no flaw. If a group of people doesn't want to be governed by a certain body they should have the right to secede. A government derives it's right to rule by the people accepting this rule. Obviously this is a really hard problem and it opens up the door for all kind of abuses, but ultimately democracy demands that. Democracy first needs a demos. A group of people who feel connected by whatever reason they li…

>If a group of people doesn't want to be governed by a certain body they should have the right to secede.

If you follow this principle to the extreme then laws become essentially voluntary, which contradicts the whole meaning of law.

I think democratic principles can never be applicable to decisions about the existence of the entity as a whole in the same way they apply to governing an existing entity.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#209

Post by VHRanger »

ritchiea wrote: post #77
adriand wrote: post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

I believe the problem is Quebec has a poor economy and figured to lose out economically and in subsequent trade deals if they became independent. Catalonia on the other hand is ~20% of Spain's economy and ~15% of the population so on the national level there is an interest in keeping Catalonia as part of Spain against the wishes of the Catalan population. Canada has leverage if Quebec wishes to secede, Spain doesn't…

A quick googling would show you Quebec is also 20% of Canadian GDP and 15% of Canadian population.

Quebec moreover cuts off maritime provinces from the rest of Canada

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#210

Post by dgut »

msh wrote: post #194
dgut wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned before, completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not, and the foundations a lot shakier.

Why are the foundations shakier?

Separate armies, laws, currency, un-democratic state, considerably shorter time period, a national id (Catalonia has never been a state before).
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