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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#191

Post by fauigerzigerk »

adriand wrote: post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

The problem is how you determine the entity that should have a right to such a vote.

There are many wealthy regions in many countries that may want to keep all their money for themselves in spite of the fact that their wealth is based on its historical role within the country as a whole.

For instance, London has a lot of reasons to declare itself independent from the UK. But it would seem rather odd if all it took to secede was a simple majority of people who currently have a London postcode.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#192

Post by csdreamer7 »

The pro-Spain arguments here in this post are really poor. The only two good arguments that on their face are worth looking at are: Catalan's pop is evenly split on the issue and local officials are pushing it to gain power.

Spain was baited-they took it, and now Catalan's secession movement has international sympathy.

For abit of context of how something this is handled here in America. In 2015 the US Supreme Court temporary blocked a Native Hawaiian non-profit from counting votes in what lower courts called a private election (that the Supreme Court said used public funds granted to that non-profit). The issue plaintiffs were suing the non-profit over was it was excluded only to what they considered 'Native Hawaiians'. They wanted to establish a Constitution for Native Hawaiians for self governance.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-supreme-court-block...

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/08/29/15...

The organization later dissolved from what I read in the Supreme Court's opinion on sanctions. I had trouble finding more info on it. From what I can tell the courts barely cared except for the issue of using public money for a racially exclusive election. This story reminded me of it so I thought it would add to the debate.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#193

Post by jordanb »

MrPatan wrote: post #36
627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

Wow yeah now it all makes sense actually.

Spain's actions in all of this seemed completely bizarre to me. They could have diffused the situation so easily. They did the one thing that makes it all worse.

But yeah, once you realize that Spain is ruled by a nationalist party that wants conflict and violence to maintain power.. this all must seem like a gift from heaven for them.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#194

Post by msh »

dgut wrote: post #166
msh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Norway should have remained a part of Sweden and not allowed to gain independence?

As mentioned before, completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not, and the foundations a lot shakier.

Why are the foundations shakier?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#195

Post by codedokode »

notspanishflu wrote: post #88
adriand wrote: post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

Let me play whataboutism. Cannot we say that in this case the independence of Kosovo should be decided by all citizens of Serbia (who are against it)? And independence of ex-soviet satellite countries should be decided by all citizens of ex-USSR which means they have to return back to Mother Russia?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#196

Post by Tech-Noir »

dgut wrote: post #158
Tech-Noir wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there wouldn't be much left of Europe Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Independence for smaller states - ie, taking back control and power from a greater/globalist state - would, if anything, make Europe (people and culture) more European again. > They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. So peo…

> Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. > maiming and potential killing of civilians by police How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential…

> Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs.

Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you - how does it back up your claim that there wouldn't be much left of Europe if Europeans had more control over their own local affairs?

> How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential killing of civilians"?

Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#197

Post by ghaff »

paulddraper wrote: post #182
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

This is what the Confederate States of America did. That line of thinking is very unpopular, at least in the US since that time.

No. And I don't think any US state would seriously contemplate secession today however polarized politics are.

That said, if any state or group of states did overwhelmingly want to breakaway from the US, it seems unlikely that there would be meaningful support for the federal government to go to war to stop them.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#198

Post by MrPatan »

occultist_throw wrote: post #165
throwaway76543 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure? Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

Sure. But they had better come up with a currency, nation/state political system in which others can adhere to, tax system, military, and all other things that nation-states do. I dont think a "town", regardless of their richness, would be able to handle that. Now, I could see the eastern seabed, with the bounds of the Appalachian mountains as a "country". I could also see the northern and southern areas between the…

I'm on the phone with San Marino, Monaco, The Vatican, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Andorra and several tiny islands in the middle of nowhere. I'm trying to tell them the sad news that occultist_throw can't see them existing at all, it wouldn't be viable, you see.

I'm trying to soften the blow, what do you think I should tell them?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#199

Post by InternetOfStuff »

xenophonf wrote: post #152
notspanishflu wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that lie, I can't help you.

I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in. Reputable sources of info on the history of Catalonia are plentiful, whether online or in the library. In this case, OP is probably referring to the Spanish Civil War, which indeed happened within living memory and prior to which Catalonia was autonomous under the Second Spanish Republic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic…

> I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in.

Thank you.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#200

Post by monort »

codedokode wrote: post #187
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of bad shit happened in the Dark Ages, that's why they are called the Dark Ages. Doesn't mean we shouldn't correct them now we know better.

If you allow anyone to declare independence then Europe might split back apart into hundreds of small provinces. For example, there were times when major Greek and Italian cities were independent states, what if they will want to return back to that time? In this case an external enemy will conquer those small states one by one like Pacman eats dots.

Why do you think a military alliance requires a political one? They can join e.g. NATO if they are afraid of Russia.
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