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College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

nytimes.com

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Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#201

Post by tn13 »

camel_Snake wrote: post #170
tn13 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American kids are not doing the cost-benefit analysis and they alone are to be blamed for it. For example. For many prospective college students, the trades might be a much more lucrative option. Using the example of plumbing, the average plumber earns $53,820 per year with the employer paying the apprentice a wage and training. (This money is for expert plumber. When adjusted to experience etc. it is around $20k per…

I'm not sure putting all the blame on these kids is fair. If we as a country have decided that those under 21 do not possess the appropriate reasoning skills or responsibility to have a beer, how do we accept that they have enough of the above to make such a large financial decision? If I had applied for a $50,000 loan to start my own business at 18 from most banks I'm betting I would have been rejected. Yet we're ok…

But we as a country think that it is perfectly okay to send 19 year olds in Iraq or Syria and die fighting for someone else's mistakes.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#202

Post by tn13 »

sotojuan wrote: post #182
tn13 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American kids are not doing the cost-benefit analysis and they alone are to be blamed for it. For example. For many prospective college students, the trades might be a much more lucrative option. Using the example of plumbing, the average plumber earns $53,820 per year with the employer paying the apprentice a wage and training. (This money is for expert plumber. When adjusted to experience etc. it is around $20k per…

If you're raised in a suburban middle/upper middle environment you're told to go to college from day one by parents, teachers, friends, etc (especially parents). In some families there's actually little choice, but even if the student had the choice, it's a hard one to make in such a culture especially at age 17/18. That said, community college -> college is a safe and affordable option. The opposite happens too—I kn…

Social pressure is common but when I look at Asian communities they seem to have very good understanding of which colleges work and which don't. I dont see why average american kid can not get the same information.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#203

Post by devishard »

Steeeve wrote: post #197
devishard wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you think looking at three California University calculators for one year's tuition is any more a representative sample than your previous anecdotes. You're disagreeing with national surveys of the cost that people actually pay over four years. You're disagreeing based on a limited sample of promotional calculators of one year cost from one area of the country.

Because out-of-state tuition costs are dramatically higher. I could look at other Ivy's, but they would be very similar to Stanford. The CSU calculator is for all CSUs (~20 schools). All UCs will have similar costs and financial aid scenarios. If I lived in Alabama, my income wouldn't be relevant. I have no idea what I would make in that part of the country. What I do know, and what is plainly obvious, is that this t…

> Because out-of-state tuition costs are dramatically higher.

Yes, true... which doesn't expand your sample size in any way.

> I could look at other Ivy's, but they would be very similar to Stanford.

You could look at the list of Ivy's and find that Standford is not an Ivy.

You could also look at the list of Ivy's and discover that they are not similar to other Ivy's.

You could also look into how these places calculate your income and discover that your income is very different from the amount that you put into the calculators.

You could also send a kid there and discover that there are lots of costs a simplistic calculator doesn't include.

You could also send a kit there and discover that cost changes from year to year, and usually goes up.

You could also read my previous post and acknowledge that your anecdotal experience which of putting numbers into a calculator is completely irrelevant to the many experiences of people in different parts of the country who actually go to schools and pay for them.

> What I do know, and what is plainly obvious, is that this topic is fueled by fear mongering.

The fact that smart people disagree with you is strong evidence that your assertion is not obvious.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#204

Post by massysett »

sedachv wrote: post #179
massysett wrote: post #134

"a college education is being priced out of the reach of middle-class and even upper-middle-class families." If this were true, we would see one of two things: (1) colleges would be empty and closing their doors, or (2) we'd have an enormous debt bubble. (1) is obviously false. (2) is more interesting and, indeed, debt levels may be high. However, in a development that most pieces like this ignore, the federal govern…

The income-sensitive repayment plans come with a lot of caveats. My wife took that route before we married and it was mostly just a huge debt trap with interest piling up and she still struggled to make payments. I have not done the math with median debt/income/compound interest over X years but it seems to me that a lot of people who go that route will wind up with debt they will never be able to repay in their life…

The income is based on the tax return. It may be to your advantage to file separate returns.

Absolutely, it may be debt you will never pay off. If after several years you don't repay it, it is wiped clean. What a deal.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#205

Post by massysett »

choward wrote: post #162
massysett wrote: post #134

"a college education is being priced out of the reach of middle-class and even upper-middle-class families." If this were true, we would see one of two things: (1) colleges would be empty and closing their doors, or (2) we'd have an enormous debt bubble. (1) is obviously false. (2) is more interesting and, indeed, debt levels may be high. However, in a development that most pieces like this ignore, the federal govern…

> "If your income is low enough, your payment could be as low as $0 per month." > So $0 a month is unaffordable?? "If your income is low enough." Read the headline again.

I can read it fifty times and the conclusion doesn't change. The programs cap payments to perfectly reasonable amounts.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#206

Post by dctoedt »

azernik wrote: post #144
flubert wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, ...isn't the real failure right here, in the constant infantilizing of our young? Shouldn't we be expecting our society to produce semi-capable adults when they come of age? It's not like people have to be so unworldly at the tender age of 18. http://roppskyline.pbworks.com/w/page/6550634/Growing%20up%2...

I'm pretty sure those Spartan soldier-children were not capable of making informed financial decisions. In fact, a big part of that regimented lifestyle was built to take away choices from young people. Great saying (I think Israeli) - "the army is a system built by geniuses to control idiots". Because they generally recruit 18-20-year-olds, and yes, 18-20-year-olds are idiots. So the institution puts them through th…

> Great saying (I think Israeli) - "the army is a system built by geniuses to control idiots".

That's a variation on a line from Herman Wouk's World War II novel The Caine Mutiny, in which one character says that the Navy is a system designed by geniuses for execution by idiots.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#207

Post by sedachv »

massysett wrote: post #204
sedachv wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The income-sensitive repayment plans come with a lot of caveats. My wife took that route before we married and it was mostly just a huge debt trap with interest piling up and she still struggled to make payments. I have not done the math with median debt/income/compound interest over X years but it seems to me that a lot of people who go that route will wind up with debt they will never be able to repay in their life…

The income is based on the tax return. It may be to your advantage to file separate returns. Absolutely, it may be debt you will never pay off. If after several years you don't repay it, it is wiped clean. What a deal.

> If after several years you don't repay it, it is wiped clean. What a deal.

I had to check this as I had not heard of that before. "Several years" is 25 years under income-based repayment (years before you switched to income-based repayment do not count). The loans are not "wiped clean" - whatever balance is forgiven after 25 years is counted as taxable income, so actually you would be in a worse off position after getting your loans forgiven. Source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibrfaq.phtml

All this of course only applies to federal student loans. About half of my wife's loan balances are from private lenders and from what I hear this ratio is common.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#208

Post by Steeeve »

devishard wrote: post #203
Steeeve wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because out-of-state tuition costs are dramatically higher. I could look at other Ivy's, but they would be very similar to Stanford. The CSU calculator is for all CSUs (~20 schools). All UCs will have similar costs and financial aid scenarios. If I lived in Alabama, my income wouldn't be relevant. I have no idea what I would make in that part of the country. What I do know, and what is plainly obvious, is that this t…

> Because out-of-state tuition costs are dramatically higher. Yes, true... which doesn't expand your sample size in any way. > I could look at other Ivy's, but they would be very similar to Stanford. You could look at the list of Ivy's and find that Standford is not an Ivy. You could also look at the list of Ivy's and discover that they are not similar to other Ivy's. You could also look into how these places calcula…

I'm sure you consider yourself very smart. I see that you are vested in this argument. I can only surmise that my position doesn't match your political views. Get outside, go relax. This discussion isn't worth the strain it's putting on you.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#209

Post by azernik »

dctoedt wrote: post #206
azernik wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure those Spartan soldier-children were not capable of making informed financial decisions. In fact, a big part of that regimented lifestyle was built to take away choices from young people. Great saying (I think Israeli) - "the army is a system built by geniuses to control idiots". Because they generally recruit 18-20-year-olds, and yes, 18-20-year-olds are idiots. So the institution puts them through th…

> Great saying (I think Israeli) - "the army is a system built by geniuses to control idiots". That's a variation on a line from Herman Wouk's World War II novel The Caine Mutiny , in which one character says that the Navy is a system designed by geniuses for execution by idiots.

Ha! I'd heard that book was good.

I heard the phrase from my mom (Israeli, grew up in the 60s-70s). Not sure the saying is widely adopted in Israel or just she or someone agree knew read the book; apparently it rang true with people's experiences :-P

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#210

Post by massysett »

sedachv wrote: post #207
massysett wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The income is based on the tax return. It may be to your advantage to file separate returns. Absolutely, it may be debt you will never pay off. If after several years you don't repay it, it is wiped clean. What a deal.

> If after several years you don't repay it, it is wiped clean. What a deal. I had to check this as I had not heard of that before. "Several years" is 25 years under income-based repayment (years before you switched to income-based repayment do not count). The loans are not "wiped clean" - whatever balance is forgiven after 25 years is counted as taxable income, so actually you would be in a worse off position after…

How is paying a percentage of the loan balance as taxes worse than paying the entire loan balance?

It would all be due at once (offhand I don't know what sorts of payment plans IRS has) so it could be worse that way.

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