College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets • Hacker News Board

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#161

Post by throwawaysocks » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:41 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #149

throwawaysocks wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The push for more and more college is a huge wealth transfer from the middle and lower-middle class to the upper-middle class professorial caste. Hanlon begs that we consider the possibility that a pedestrian understanding of basic statistics and market forces are the more likely culprit for public perception. Aside, you've also picked the wrong boogeyman. Outside of the elite institutions, where the .01% of rock-s…

You can throw administrators into "professorial caste" (though note that professors still dominate payroll at most places: http://data.richmond.com/salaries/2014/state/george-mason-un... ). And how is the financial industry benefitting from the peddling of useless college degrees? Private student loans only account for 8% of student loan debt (the federal government holds the rest).

> You can throw administrators into "professorial caste"

That makes about as much sense as throwing the C-suite of a manufacturing company into the "laborer caste". Administrators these days mostly aren't former professors and have very different jobs.

> Here are the salaries of professors at George Mason

First and most important, GMU falls into that "elite" class I mentioned earlier. It's atypical; as an R1 institutions, their professors are paid on average far better than professors at the huge majority of higher ed institutions in the US.

Outside of places like GMU, professors make closer to mid five figures. Again, we don't have to speculate. Use Google if you don't believe me.

Even then, you'll notice my point still stands -- the reporting you linked to just completely tops out around the typical base salary of top tech firms. If professors are benefiting, they aren't exactly getting rich.

> The payroll is dominated by professors

1. "Dominated" is a bit of a stretch. The page you link lists 4,043 employees, and other GMU data states there are 1,263 full-time instructors (which will include non-professors, BTW).

2. GMU has an atypically small student:teacher ratio.

3. It doesn't follow that professors benefiting the most from this growth.

4. At a place like GA, professors are also typically bringing in more money into the university in the form of grants.

> And how is the financial industry benefitting from the peddling of useless college degrees?

> Private student loans only account for 8% of student loan debt

So "only" 80,000,000,000. Not to mention handling endowments, etc.

How much do you want to bet there are 0.01%ers who made their wealth off of higher ed? Because those people almost surely exist, and sure as hell weren't professors...

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#162

Post by choward » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:42 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #134

"a college education is being priced out of the reach of middle-class and even upper-middle-class families." If this were true, we would see one of two things: (1) colleges would be empty and closing their doors, or (2) we'd have an enormous debt bubble. (1) is obviously false. (2) is more interesting and, indeed, debt levels may be high. However, in a development that most pieces like this ignore, the federal govern…

> "If your income is low enough, your payment could be as low as $0 per month."

> So $0 a month is unaffordable??

"If your income is low enough." Read the headline again.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#163

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:43 PM UTC

branchless wrote: post #87

gist wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

See here is your problem. You think it's fine that college costs reflect the return over a working lifetime for the skills gained. That is credit creation right there. It allows the pulling forward of demand to capture labour over a lifetime for credit creators (not intermediaries) - the banks. Until we tackle money creation housing and college, two essentials - that's why they lend into them - will always reflect th…

Elite university tuition is essential... why?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#164

Post by nitwit005 » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:49 PM UTC

scelerat wrote: post #97

jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

Another piece of the problem, at least in the US, is the that a high school diploma, the highest degree attainable by purely public funding, is a certification of only the barest level of competency in communication and arithmetic. The requirement for "BA or equivalent" in so many situations isn't because that position requires four years of advanced study; it's because four years of advanced study usually means a ca…

There is a constant pressure to push down the standard of a high school diploma. It feels so bad for people to see students try and fail, and there is the usual pressure from the parents of special needs kids.

My personal feeling is we should give everyone a diploma, but list some sort of grade level attainment. If nothing else, it would help universities place students into the remedial classes they sometimes need.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#165

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:49 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #160

tptacek wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't generally pull the trigger on six-figure medical or law school debt in your teens.

Lots of people do at 22-23, aka before a car rental company will give you a decent rate based on their actuarial models of judgment.

That's true and it's problematic, but unlike deferring undergrad, it's routine and Not stigmatized to defer law school.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#166

Post by CyberDildonics » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:51 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #25

CyberDildonics wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't having kids because they would go into debt if they decide to go to college? You are aware that the bulk of human knowledge is available for free on the internet right?

As I said elsewhere, there is no network in learning to code by yourself, or what have you. Assuming my children could learn everything they need from the Internet to give them stable, well paying jobs while competing against twice the number of global applicants as I did is truly wishful thinking.

This 'college is about networking' argument is one of the weakest rationalizations out there, as if it isn't possible to walk up to someone and show them directly that you can program using something you wrote and an ipad. Anyone can also make a webpage and show off a demo by sending someone a link.

Do you know who students meet at college? Other students trying to get jobs and professors who overwhelmingly don't even have ties to professionals in their industry.

Every interview but one I've gotten by going through a process that anyone could go through and it has been my work that has stood out.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#167

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

throwawaysocks wrote: post #161

rayiner wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can throw administrators into "professorial caste" (though note that professors still dominate payroll at most places: http://data.richmond.com/salaries/2014/state/george-mason-un... ). And how is the financial industry benefitting from the peddling of useless college degrees? Private student loans only account for 8% of student loan debt (the federal government holds the rest).

> You can throw administrators into "professorial caste" That makes about as much sense as throwing the C-suite of a manufacturing company into the "laborer caste". Administrators these days mostly aren't former professors and have very different jobs. > Here are the salaries of professors at George Mason First and most important, GMU falls into that "elite" class I mentioned earlier. It's atypical; as an R1 institut…

> If professors are benefiting, they aren't exactly getting rich.

I didn't say they were rich. I said they were upper middle class. The average salary for a full professor in the U.S. is $135,000: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/04/08/aaup-survey-f.... Median personal income in that age bracket is about $40-50k.

My point is that academic jobs are generally well-paying and secure, and they're paid-for by kids taking out huge debt to keep the whole show going. And the show keeps going because we tell fairy tales about the importance of a college education.

> How much do you want to bet there are 0.01%ers who made their wealth off of higher ed? Because those people almost surely exist, and sure as hell weren't professors...

First, a few people getting rich isn't as big of a concern as tens of thousands of moderately expensive people on payroll. The vast majority of the $500 billion spent on higher education each year isn't going to financiers. It's going to faculty, facilities, etc. Second, the financiers wouldn't be getting rich either if we went back to only sending 10% of the population to college.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#168

Post by akhilcacharya » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 11:00 PM UTC

aceinaday wrote: post #157

akhilcacharya wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I'm very concerned about the perception of having an AS. This may not be a rational concern, but I've removed it from my resume to reduce risk. 2) Opportunities at CC's are limited compared to even non-flagship state universities (no research, etc), although you can of course still get other opportunities at other local universities. 3) You're effectively tied to your state school. I'm lucky that NC has one well-r…

Why would you list an AS on your resume? If the idea is to transfer to one of the state schools and finish up there, wouldn't you just list your BS?

I know some people that listed their AS too. Of course you don't need to.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#169

Post by sedachv » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 11:03 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #33

vkou wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are not children of two working, well-educated professionals. If that family can't afford to give their children a future without selling them into debt, the American dream is truly dead.

I mean, I agree that they're not children of the elite, but they go to college anyways. College debt is annoying, but I'd be surprised to hear it's a top 5 concern for any of them. For whatever it's worth, the idea that the "American Dream" requires a college education is itself a little weird.

> College debt is annoying, but I'd be surprised to hear it's a top 5 concern for any of them.

Yes, all those people having to live incognito to avoid collection agencies or even fleeing abroad (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/23/pf/college/student_loan_fugi...) certainly do not figure it as a concern.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#170

Post by camel_Snake » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 11:08 PM UTC

tn13 wrote: post #150

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

American kids are not doing the cost-benefit analysis and they alone are to be blamed for it. For example. For many prospective college students, the trades might be a much more lucrative option. Using the example of plumbing, the average plumber earns $53,820 per year with the employer paying the apprentice a wage and training. (This money is for expert plumber. When adjusted to experience etc. it is around $20k per…

I'm not sure putting all the blame on these kids is fair. If we as a country have decided that those under 21 do not possess the appropriate reasoning skills or responsibility to have a beer, how do we accept that they have enough of the above to make such a large financial decision? If I had applied for a $50,000 loan to start my own business at 18 from most banks I'm betting I would have been rejected. Yet we're okay lending the same to invest in education as long as the student is yoked to this debt for life.