College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets • Hacker News Board

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#141

Post by akhilcacharya » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:02 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #99

akhilcacharya wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent my last 2 years of high school getting an AS before going to my state school. I wouldn't recommend it to high achieving students, at all.

You wouldn't.. why?

1) I'm very concerned about the perception of having an AS. This may not be a rational concern, but I've removed it from my resume to reduce risk.

2) Opportunities at CC's are limited compared to even non-flagship state universities (no research, etc), although you can of course still get other opportunities at other local universities.

3) You're effectively tied to your state school. I'm lucky that NC has one well-regarded flagship, but not everybody wants to go to their state school anyway. Higher level coursework won't transfer to private universities.

4) My early college program limited what coursework we could take, so I still need 2.5-4 years to graduate with a CS degree from my state school even with significant credit which negates the cost advantage in my case.

5) The peer group can be hit or miss. With that said, there were __many__ very intelligent and hardworking people in my classes.

With all that said, some people can still make the best of it. My school graduated their first Harvard admit this year (but then again, he might have been legacy). We've had 2 Duke admits, 1 Cornell - the rest go to UNC or lower ranked schools like myself.

Doing it again I would have probably gone to my state's boarding school instead.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#142

Post by azernik » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:03 PM UTC

niftich wrote: post #120

throwawaysocks wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is mostly completely obvious, and the fact that you're even asking makes me wonder if you're trolling (EDIT: apologies, I over-reach). Here are some categories of jobs for which most people don't or can't self-teach, or where a tertiary degree is the default route: Huge swaths of the medical profession (MDs, BSNs, PAs, DOs, Pharm.D.'s, ...) Non-BSN nurses and expert tradesmen and craftsmen (tertiary == pos…

It was a genuine question, and here's why: if these advanced degrees possess such importance to their respective fields that employers will refuse to hire anyone who hasn't attained them, that simply means that the employers have outsourced a large portion of their on-the-job training to public education. This is troubling, as why should my [insert some other college degree] subsidize companies of lawyers, accountant…

This is "outsourced" to the public sector because it's very hard for an employer to ensure that they're the ones who will benefit from the expenses of on-the-job training - it's hard to take back the training you've given someone if they decide to leave for another company tomorrow. And we have, as a society, decided that we do not want a system in which companies can force their employees to stay.

So, public education. In some countries (e.g. Germany) this is actually funded by industries as a bloc contributing to education in their fields, to reduce the free-rider problem while still allowing market signals to operate, but that's still a quasi-public system.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#143

Post by throwawaysocks » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:06 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #126

intopieces wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. That's the problem, not the solution. College should be for everyone. There's no reason why a person who becomes a plumber or peace corps volunteer or electrician can't also go to college and learn those things, among other topics. In 2015, only 33% of American adults had a college…

College is a waste of time and money for almost everyone who attends . In the 1960's, less than 10% of Americans had college degrees. Yet, we still had engineers and accountants and insurance adjusters, etc. Very few people, even white collar workers, learn anything essential in college. The push for more and more college is a huge wealth transfer from the middle and lower-middle class to the upper-middle class profe…

> The push for more and more college is a huge wealth transfer from the middle and lower-middle class to the upper-middle class professorial caste.

Hanlon begs that we consider the possibility that a pedestrian understanding of basic statistics and market forces are the more likely culprit for public perception.

Aside, you've also picked the wrong boogeyman.

Outside of the elite institutions, where the .01% of rock-star professors MAYBE make as much as a typical software developer at a top software firm, professors come in nowhere near upper-middle class. At typical institutions, they make mid-5 figures, have no upward mobility in their professions, and are a favorite target for pot shots and threats of funding cuts because everyone loves to hate them. In all, it's a pretty unappealing job outside of the social capital with traditional types and the carrot of tenure (which isn't nearly as permanent as it's often perceived).

The financial industry and university managers that are benefiting from peddling of useless college degrees, not professors.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#144

Post by azernik » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:08 PM UTC

flubert wrote: post #108

dv_dt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

>So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, ...isn't the real failure right here, in the constant infantilizing of our young? Shouldn't we be expecting our society to produce semi-capable adults when they come of age? It's not like people have to be so unworldly at the tender age of 18. http://roppskyline.pbworks.com/w/page/6550634/Growing%20up%2...

I'm pretty sure those Spartan soldier-children were not capable of making informed financial decisions. In fact, a big part of that regimented lifestyle was built to take away choices from young people.

Great saying (I think Israeli) - "the army is a system built by geniuses to control idiots". Because they generally recruit 18-20-year-olds, and yes, 18-20-year-olds are idiots. So the institution puts them through the kind of regimentation that the Spartans did to exert some kind of control.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#145

Post by zardo » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:09 PM UTC

gist wrote: post #60

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a great answer and illuminates the serious ups and downs with higher education. However, I have two points that prevent me from changing my views: 1: The ex husband is a great example of how someone can go into tremendous debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy and still come out with nothing. 2: The rapidly increasing price of higher education compounds the risk of making the wrong choice. A mistak…

Yeah but the devil is in the details. Look further and you find that the husband is the type of guy who did very well in school academically but lacks the initiative to be the person who keeps the good job after law school. To that point he got a job at a top firm but blew it. One reason was he didn't want to put in the extra hours (I think) and he wanted instead to play with his young kids. The hard working guy who…

>My point is sure the game has gotten tougher but just because it is doesn't mean you blame the game you just outwork the other person.

Of the system requires you be a bad parent, it is not sustainable.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#146

Post by Mz » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:14 PM UTC

I dropped out of college after two years, in part because I personally knew two people with a Bachelor's degree in hand who delivered newspapers for a living, both of whom had pretty pathetic lives. At age 18, my boyfriend delivered newspapers. I was very familiar with the terrible hours and pay. I felt extremely clear that I could deliver newspapers without a degree and my life would be vastly better if I did so without first being saddled with a mountain of debt.

We sell people on the idea that college is The Ticket to a serious career with good pay. It isn't that cut and dried. We really need to stop promoting that idea.

I later returned to school when I had a better idea of what I wanted to do with my life. One of my positive experiences was with community college in California. The in state rates are surprisingly low. I wrapped up my AA and this inspired my husband to start going to college. As a military member, he got 75% of his tuition covered. His out of pocket tuition expenses were substantially less than the cost of textbooks.

The community college system in California is one of its little known strengths. Many four year colleges have agreements in place with community colleges that make it easy to do your first two years cheaply and then transfer to a prestigious four year program. California Virtual Campus is also an amazing resource.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#147

Post by jamesroseman » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:18 PM UTC

chris11 wrote: post #112

jamesroseman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Anecdote] Here in Boston Microsoft built an entire office just to offer a great internship program (Foundry, now Microsoft Garage) to Harvard and MIT students. I think on average recruiters view top tier schools as places where your ROI for headhunting is higher, because more prospects are more likely to make it through the recruiting process -- but that's just a hunch.

That's true I guess. I did transfer from a really small college to a big state school with a decent cs program. It's not a top college, but we do get a ton of money for research. And I did notice a huge difference in opportunities. But I don't see going here as being drastically worse than a better school. I've gotten interviews at a bunch of places, and every summer I have classmates that intern at highly competitiv…

> But I don't see going here as being drastically worse than a better school.

Honestly I'd be surprised if there are radical differences in how prepared you are for industry coming out of undergrad from Harvard, MIT, or an average state school because tech is much more of a meritocracy than a lot of other career paths, and because their undergrad programs are notably underwhelming (while their graduate programs are phenomenal).

I think recruiters see top-tier college graduates as one of two things. Either they come from a good school so they must know their stuff so they must be able to pass (making the recruiter's ROI more secure) or they come from a good school so they know how to play the acceptance game, and their pedigree alone will legitimize our program by association (our internship program hosted 3 MIT students, 5 Stanford students, etc etc). I don't agree with either of these metrics, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were common thoughts among recruiters.

> I don't know some of what I'm missing because I'm not at Harvard or MIT but I don't know how my school would be a negative at most places.

I think if you were in a field other than tech or were relying on your academics alone you'd notice how easy it is to get that first phone interview. As is, I don't think it ultimately makes much of a difference. Also, your alma mater creates your post-graduate immediate network. Getting in touch with a "fellow" Stanford graduate is probably more valuable than your average state school graduate depending on the industry. However, I believe that if you were to do research at these top-tier places you'd notice a huge boost from being at a university that gets huge endowments and talented professors. That's the one other exception (to me).

Note: I don't mean that Stanford students are smarter or more capable than state school students, only that the association of getting into a high pedigree high cost school probably means your peers are well connected and/or wealthy. Maybe that's not a fair assumption.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#148

Post by jamesroseman » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #96

jamesroseman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That experience sounds remarkably familiar. I know here in Mass at least UMass Amherst has a remarkably good computer science program for how cheap it can be (if you qualify for the right tuition credit programs by scoring well on standardized tests in high school). Though it's a poor indicator of an undergrad program, their CS grad program was ranked #25 in the country. While I understand your point, I take some iss…

That's definitely a good point. If you're in a low bracket and aren't able to get a full ride or good scholarship (doesn't mean you're bad or didn't work hard enough, but only a small % of people can get those), you're definitely going to be wondering if you can go to college at all. And if you barely afford to, there's all kinds of external costs associated with college (books, for example). Sometimes scholarships o…

I have a lot of friends I graduated public HS here in Mass who went to Salem State and transferred to UMass Amherst. Best part was (to my understanding) they got full rides for their last 2 years of college because they met an arbitrary GPA requirement (might have been straight-As).

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#149

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:21 PM UTC

throwawaysocks wrote: post #143

rayiner wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College is a waste of time and money for almost everyone who attends . In the 1960's, less than 10% of Americans had college degrees. Yet, we still had engineers and accountants and insurance adjusters, etc. Very few people, even white collar workers, learn anything essential in college. The push for more and more college is a huge wealth transfer from the middle and lower-middle class to the upper-middle class profe…

> The push for more and more college is a huge wealth transfer from the middle and lower-middle class to the upper-middle class professorial caste. Hanlon begs that we consider the possibility that a pedestrian understanding of basic statistics and market forces are the more likely culprit for public perception. Aside, you've also picked the wrong boogeyman. Outside of the elite institutions, where the .01% of rock-s…

You can throw administrators into "professorial caste" (though note that professors still dominate payroll at most places: http://data.richmond.com/salaries/2014/state/george-mason-un...).

And how is the financial industry benefitting from the peddling of useless college degrees? Private student loans only account for 8% of student loan debt (the federal government holds the rest).

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#150

Post by tn13 » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 10:22 PM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

American kids are not doing the cost-benefit analysis and they alone are to be blamed for it.

For example.

For many prospective college students, the trades might be a much more lucrative option. Using the example of plumbing, the average plumber earns $53,820 per year with the employer paying the apprentice a wage and training. (This money is for expert plumber. When adjusted to experience etc. it is around $20k per year without any student loan debt.)

Now consider a college degree

Petroleum engineering has an average starting salary of $93,500 while animal science has an average starting salary of $32,700. This breaks down for a monthly salary for the petroleum engineer of $7,761.67 versus a person working in animal science with a monthly salary of $2,725.

While Petroleum engineer can very well pay the debt without much issues I fail to see how the Animal Science girl will be able to pay her debt.