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College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

nytimes.com

101–110 of 213 posts

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#101
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone The idea that this stigma exists is mostly a conservative pundit talking point used to justify cutting education budgets. If you look at labor market data, it's unsubstantiated. And if you visit middle America, you'll find plenty of people with disdain for college degrees. The Unite…

What do tertiary degrees get you? If you're an employer, why would you want to employ these people?

Most notably computational finance and research in the natural sciences (material, biochem, physics) all require tertiary degrees since those courses are simply not available at the undergraduate level.

The benefits of hiring these people by the financial and the pharma sector should be obvious.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#102
post #21

And yet, college enrollment continues to trend upward. The price continues to climb, but it's clearly not unaffordable yet. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_302.60.as...

If -- as most parents expect -- you have to start saving 20 years in advance to pay for it, or accept charity, then yeah, I'd call that unaffordable.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#103
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the solution might be to ease back on guaranteed student loans and tighten up available credit so it goes to qualified borrowers who are likely to be able to pay back what they borrow, rather than mandating that everyone who wants to goes to college without any consideration for ability to repay what they've borrowed. But then, that would result in decreasing enrollment rates and hysterics in the headline…

by subsidizing education so heavily in pursuit of increased attendance rates, we've driven prices sky-high At least for me, the relationship you're implying between subsidies and educational costs needs some explanation. If, say, three-quarters of a college's students are having 25-50% of their fees subsidized, what about those subsidies forces the college to raise their fees disproportionately to their costs?

Nothing forces them to; basic economics tells us that their prices will rise to the point that consumers will bear, and that subsidy increases the price that consumers will bear.

Recent research (http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf) bears out subsidy as a cost driver, as well.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#104
post #81
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

> So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed Well a good start might be simply avoiding majors that you know will go nowhere, don't you think? Like music, art and certain liberal arts. Even when I went to school it was known to be hard to get a job in those fields. But yet people still choose them and tried to "follow their passion". My passion was to learn something where I…

I'm sympathetic to what you're saying here. Sometimes I think the same. But ultimately I think it's premature optimization for society to directly build in economic earning value onto the cost of education. Maybe every major should show prospective students the typical earnings of that major as an indirect influence - but I don't think building that correlation into direct budgeting is a good thing to do in the long term.

It would do far more good to first get tuition costs under control and then maybe use the direct funding path as a way where influence on public universities could be had. However, I think society ends up stronger if there's something of a firewall preventing politicians from putting too many specific policy requirements attached to that funding.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#105
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a great answer and illuminates the serious ups and downs with higher education. However, I have two points that prevent me from changing my views: 1: The ex husband is a great example of how someone can go into tremendous debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy and still come out with nothing. 2: The rapidly increasing price of higher education compounds the risk of making the wrong choice. A mistak…

Yeah but the devil is in the details. Look further and you find that the husband is the type of guy who did very well in school academically but lacks the initiative to be the person who keeps the good job after law school. To that point he got a job at a top firm but blew it. One reason was he didn't want to put in the extra hours (I think) and he wanted instead to play with his young kids. The hard working guy who…

> My point is sure the game has gotten tougher but just because it is doesn't mean you blame the game you just outwork the other person.

Sounds like a race to the bottom in the ever decreasing marginal productivity of labor in 21st century capitalism.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#106
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone The idea that this stigma exists is mostly a conservative pundit talking point used to justify cutting education budgets. If you look at labor market data, it's unsubstantiated. And if you visit middle America, you'll find plenty of people with disdain for college degrees. The Unite…

What do tertiary degrees get you? If you're an employer, why would you want to employ these people?

The answer is mostly completely obvious, and the fact that you're even asking makes me wonder if you're trolling (EDIT: apologies, I over-reach). Here are some categories of jobs for which most people don't or can't self-teach, or where a tertiary degree is the default route:

Huge swaths of the medical profession (MDs, BSNs, PAs, DOs, Pharm.D.'s, ...)

Non-BSN nurses and expert tradesmen and craftsmen (tertiary == post-secondary, which includes community college!!!)

Engineers

Lawyers, clerks, etc.

Accountants

Actuaries

Industrial scientists and their surrounding support structure

Lots of mid- and uppoer-level management in every sector (many of these roles really do require a tertiary or higher command of statistics and other skills)

Educators

The whole army of support roles that require an excellent command of written language (good communicators are hard to find, and more often than not have tertiary degrees... those English majors really do often actually learn how to very write well)

Even software engineers. I know it's an unpopular opinion round these parts, but the huge majority of excellent software engineers have a tertiary education in CS or a related field (Math, physics, etc.).

Could all this stuff be taught without a four+ year degree(s)? Some of it could. Most of it couldn't -- not well, at least.

In short, employers hire these people because it's either impossible or very difficult to find people who are ready to work in these roles (or, in rare cases, are even legally permitted to do so) straight out of high school.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#107
post #89

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

Absolutely. Most of those my age who didn't go into tech and got 'regular' jobs are absolutely filled to the brim with debt with zero way out. Those here in Chicago who have tech jobs aren't able to find jobs that match their skill. My highschool was mostly in the lower/lower-middle class range with upper-middle in honor's programs. Multiple times per year, they gave presentations about the absolute, unwavering impor…

Well as much as I appreciate your earlier points, I do want to comment:

> The culture around college necessity is incredibly frustrating. To make matters worse, when the subject comes up, many people say things like "Not going to college worked for you, but it tends not to for everybody else and it worked for me blah blah." It doesn't ever, every push the conversation forward. It's a weird, frustrating form of survivor-bias.

That it's you who's showing survivor-bias. The data as far as I'm aware of it, does indeed confirm, that a college degree is a net financial benefit, despite of course obvious substantial anecdotal evidence to the contrary that every person is familiar with (my friend xyz got a degree and he's doing shitty). I'm purely talking historically, and financially.

Even today I'm seeing a job market where you can't get a traineeship in most companies without a master's degree, as silly as that may be.

Also I want to stress that tech is very, very much an exception. A field where more than most, you can get access to jobs on the basis of your work, not your work in school. I feel HN underappreciates the difference with the rest of the population.

In terms of happiness, fulfilment etc, I can't speak on that.

Also, I can't speak on how this'll develop in next generations, e.g. for those going to college today or later this decade, but I suspect like most that there'll be a big paradigm shift making college way less appealing.

At the end of the day, the benefits of college can be seen as an arbitrage opportunity in the market. i.e., spend X money for education, get Y (which is > X) benefits in income in return. And like any arbitrage opportunity, X will increase in cost and Y will decrease, as more people are drawn to the opportunity, until it largely fades. (or worse, temporarily flips around due to oversupply, like we've seen in some industries, e.g. MBAs at various times, or lawyers recently).

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#108
post #65
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

>So at 17 or 18, with little life experience,

...isn't the real failure right here, in the constant infantilizing of our young? Shouldn't we be expecting our society to produce semi-capable adults when they come of age? It's not like people have to be so unworldly at the tender age of 18.

http://roppskyline.pbworks.com/w/page/6550634/Growing%20up%2...

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#109
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do tertiary degrees get you? If you're an employer, why would you want to employ these people?

Most notably computational finance and research in the natural sciences (material, biochem, physics) all require tertiary degrees since those courses are simply not available at the undergraduate level. The benefits of hiring these people by the financial and the pharma sector should be obvious.

It sounds like you've confused tertiary with post-graduate.

Tertiary typically means post-secondary. Secondary typically means US high school or equivalent. (from wiki: " The World Bank, for example, defines tertiary education as including universities as well as institutions that teach specific capacities of higher learning such as colleges, technical training institutes, community colleges, nursing schools, research laboratories, centers of excellence, and distance learning centers.[1]")

So the electrician with a CC degree has a tertiary education. Of course, so does the Ph.D.

Hopefully that clarifies the magnitude of the fact that fewer than 1/2 of young Americans obtained a tertiary degree...

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#110

My partner and I - both well-educated and well-employed professionals - sketched out our long-term financial plan recently. The only way we envisioned owning property would be to build our own a considerable distance away from our small city's center. That alone proved to be a significant part of our budget, which is already under considerable pressure from student loans and car payments. We estimated the expenses fo…

College can never become too costly for a single child of two well-educated and well-employed parents with 18+ year career behind them. It's just a fact that in such situation colleges will start decreasing cost and tuition to get students in.

Also cost increases are stuff that look good in marketing material to increase desirability of that college over other colleges and that trend will hit a wall. Also there is increasing political movement to get college tuition costs down.

What I get from this is: Either USA is totally screwed up country or you two value your personal lifestyle a lot more than having a child. Child isn't really that expensive since even poor can afford it. Its expensive to have child with expensive lifestyle.

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