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Girls and Software

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Re: Girls and Software

#191

Post by supersystem »

VonGuard wrote: post #177
gruseom wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you get kids modding Minecraft? I suggested this a little while ago for a kid in my brother-in-law's Grade 8 class, but then regretted it because the tools for doing it seemed inaccessible to beginners.

You don't. It's Java. It's like a kid asking you to build a car engine from scratch day one. We kindly point them to our Scratch class as a way to learn how to program.

One option would be to modify a Minecraft clone e.g. https://github.com/fogleman/Minecraft

Re: Girls and Software

#192

Post by e12e »

belorn wrote: post #184
e12e wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about stuff like the research cited here: http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/genderbias.html (I can't find the actual project I was thinking off, but this seems to be a good enough example of what I don't consider to be "poor at best, non-existent at worse".)

Let see what findings the cited studies in the paper has to say: "teachers give boys greater opportunity to expand ideas and be animated than they do girls and that they reinforce boys more for general responses than they do for girls." (1994) "teachers who are made aware of their gender-biased teaching behaviors and then provided with strategies and resources to combat bias are better able to promote gender equity i…

I only challenged the idea that there's no (good) feminist research, or that there aren't "years of" it. When this stuff started is was much more contriversal than it is today (in most circles anyway). Progress is good :)

And in case you misunderstood my point of view: I'm not advocating reverting to single sex education across the board. I'm saying that when there is documented bias (on the side of the educators and/or the students) it can be beneficial to run some single sex groups. I know that it can be useful in sexual education to do both separate and common sessions, for example.

As for the example in the article, having a class available to a single group of students only; I do agree that it can end up a negative(or strange) inpact on individuals. However the tale of a single privileged male child (obviously has awesome mother!) isn't conclusive evidence that it didn't do more good than bad overall. It might well have. Or it could have on balance been a good thing if we agree that equal oppurtunity is a worthy goal (yes, negative discrimination might be part of the price we should pay to get there).

Re: Girls and Software

#193

Post by Crito »

archagon wrote: post #167
Crito wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was young, probably 12 or 13 I think, I saw a series of images of a spider bite on a mans thumb causing the thumb to swell, split open, go necrotic, and eventually require amputation. Did this damage me? No, I'm fine. I gagged when I saw the images, then I scrolled down and looked at some more. Lasting effects? Well today as an adult, I smash spiders when I see them. Not a big deal.

I disagree. I saw a ton of stuff I never should have seen at that age. It didn't scar me for life, but it's desensitized me to a lot of terrible things. Unless you're a doctor, I just don't think it's healthy to look at NSFL gore, go "meh", and move on to something else. I also occasionally have those images flash in my head. I don't want them there, but there's nothing I can do about that now. (Granted, the same thi…

I don't think that desensitization is an inherently bad thing. There are any number of things that people become desensitized to as they grow up.

In this modern society, there are many adults who have never so much as seen a dead body (having never even gone to wakes). In previous generations, and in different societies, seeing dead bodies is common place and does not have the same power to disturb. Does it harm a child to desensitize them to the sight of a dead human body? I don't think so. Does it help? Probably. It opens them up to being able to experience a wider range things, even if it is just going to somebodies wake, being able to watch that optional-attendance autopsy video in highschool, or consider becoming a doctor.

Further, in particularly prudish societies people may not be desensitized to exposed human flesh. Is an Amish child going to be damaged by the sight of a bare ankle? Is an American child going to be damaged by the sight of a finnish sauna? I sincerely doubt it. On the other hand, which is going to have a more difficult time wearing speedos when they join the swim team?

Many humans in industrialized societies are unaccustomed to the sight of an animal being slaughtered and butchered. Are children that grow up in farming communities where they are desensitized to this somehow at a disadvantage when compared to children who grow up in urban communities and only know meat as "that stuff that comes from the store"?

Re: Girls and Software

#194

Post by tedks »

jseliger wrote: post #110
krstck wrote: post #51

Oooh, this was an icy stab right at the core. She's completely right: >Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a females T…

When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. When I was a teenager, coding or being technical in general wasn't cool either, and most of the people who were involved were or at least seemed insecure and embarrassed. Perhaps the climate in middle / high schools h…

When I was a teenager (which was not long ago), coding or being technical in general was entirely uncool, but widely acknowledged as powerful. People would come to me asking if I could "hack" various things ranging from friends Facebook accounts to banks. Teachers would ask you for help if things broke. At one point, the principal called me into his office to ask if I could help him trace a threat posted on the Internet (after notifying proper authorities and presumably trying every other lead to do his job well and protect his students).

I'd say the problem is less that being technologically adept is low-status, and more that the problem is that being technologically adept/geeky/mathematical/mechanical is considered unfeminine.

Re: Girls and Software

#195

Post by lawtguy »

4bpp wrote: post #104
a-saleh wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What exactly is corruptive information? Mostly porn and torture? I remember that when I was visiting my uncle, and he left me alone playing on his computer. I was poking around, until I found a folder containing video of a group of soldiers beheading a guy. I didn't sleep well for a week.

I don't know, a week of lost sleep seems like a pretty cheap price to pay for not growing up into the average "TV shows gory pictures of terrorists blowing up something? I now have PTSD and will vote for any measure that you say will make it less likely that my sensitive eyes are exposed to such revolting material again" member of the American electorate. I was left to roam the internet freely starting around age 10,…

From my observations, the effect of disturbing content seems to depend on the person. Some people see it, are disgusted by it and are largely unaffected. Some people (like myself), see it are disgusted by it and then are bothered by it for a long time.

I've noticed that my son is the same way, so I tend to be very careful about what he sees. He's definitely more sheltered that some of his peers, but that's based on how he reacts. It's important to know your kids and know how much they can handle.

Re: Girls and Software

#196

Post by e12e »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

>>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer

>This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12.

Sure. What about ages 3 to 7? I had access to a computer for those years, but no bbs or internet access (partly it hardly existed, partly we didn't have a modem). You definetively need to parent (all) media access these days - but I generally think if you can't trust your 10 year old to mostly do the right thing you already have a problem... Then again I also think that if you aren't involved with what your (young-ish) children are doing -you're not being a very good parent..

[edit: my point is that today this is a decision that needs to be made up there with bed times, comming in at night/evening times, watchingb(which) movies.. and for non-technical parents that's a decision they'll need help makimg]

Re: Girls and Software

#197

Post by wcummings »

superuser2 wrote: post #22
japhyr wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which I was free to break (software-wise) I'm curious, were you on a linux os? Did you break your software often? It seems to me people who get on linux early might have an easier time, because they can so easily break their system and rebuild it. It seems like a kid who breaks a windows/ mac os might need to go to their parents to deal with license keys, which might cause the parents to say "no more hacking".

OSX so no license keys or activation. I had to ask where the disks were kept the first couple times but I was careful to frame it as "I know what I'm doing, I just need the disks." My parents didn't mind. Also we were covered by AppleCare and I had no problem calling in for myself. This was in the PPC days so no VMs for me. Eventually I got a used PC from my dad's office for like $45 which has probably been through 8…

>Since it is impossible to autonomously do payments on the internet before age 18, my parents' willingness to let me use their credit card

Bitcoin (:

Re: Girls and Software

#198

Post by tedks »

belorn wrote: post #151
e12e wrote: post #133

Many good points in this article, but I think it falls short in analysing what's changed (or what's wrong). > Most of all, I'm disappointed. I had a haven, a place where no one cared what I looked like, what my body was like or about any ephemera—they cared about what I could do—and this culture shift has robbed me of my haven. At least I had that haven. The girls who follow me missed out on it. Well, yes. Computing…

> I don't think the best way forward is to throw out years of feminist research. That sentence gave me a nice smile. feminist research is poor at best, non-existent at worse. Take affirmative action in education. Give me a single study that shows that it a) produce long-term professionals, b) is better than the base line, and c) if it has any of the negative and well documented long term effects inherent of single-se…

>There are plenty of feminist research that shows there exist an gender imbalance in STEM, and most studies gives one or other kind of theory around the why. The theories are however rarely if ever tested. The "years of feminist research" has not gotten to that part yet, and won't until we demand more from researchers than summery of latest census data.

Could you give specific examples? Please limit yourself to peer-reviewed journals in psychology and sociology.

There's a long tradition of feminist research in psychology relevant in this problem space; it's incorrect as a matter of simple fact to claim that it doesn't exist.

Re: Girls and Software

#199

Post by Crito »

tedks wrote: post #194
jseliger wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. When I was a teenager, coding or being technical in general wasn't cool either, and most of the people who were involved were or at least seemed insecure and embarrassed. Perhaps the climate in middle / high schools h…

When I was a teenager (which was not long ago), coding or being technical in general was entirely uncool, but widely acknowledged as powerful. People would come to me asking if I could "hack" various things ranging from friends Facebook accounts to banks. Teachers would ask you for help if things broke. At one point, the principal called me into his office to ask if I could help him trace a threat posted on the Inter…

I think that being technologically adept is low-status, and I don't think that being asked for help is much evidence to the contrary.

I mean sure, being a lawyer is a high-status career and you will likely have people in your personal life constantly asking for your advice or favours, but car mechanics experience the same thing. Being a car mechanic is respected in a way, and people certainly understand how those skills are valuable (and can think of many ways that you might use those skills for their own advantage), but it's not "high-status".

Actually, I think I'd put car mechanic as higher status than programmer. The money is not nearly as good, but on the other hand nobody is going to assume that you are a weirdo, until proven otherwise.

Re: Girls and Software

#200

Post by d23 »

krstck wrote: post #71
simias wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

> But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... Those are all there in the real world, too. You can't protect kids from anything harmful or scary, nor should you. Stumbling across a porn or horror site is probably more traumatizing for the adult, anyway. It's like people have forgotten what it's like to be a kid! You've been told…

Yup, I can honestly say that I wouldn't be the person I am today without that unfettered access. I genuinely consider the internet to have parented me more intellectually than my parents ever did (at least, beyond the age of 10 or so).
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