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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#191

Post by morgante »

coldpie wrote: post #47
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #3

If this happens, do I get benefits on the debt I've already paid off? I would be pretty pissed if I didn't. I worked my ass off to pay my loans.

I understand the sentiment, but "I had to do , therefore everybody has to do " isn't a great argument either, especially when it leads to a stagnant economy due to nearly an entire generation with no funds to spend. I'm not advocating for any particular solution, but don't react so quickly that you cut off your nose to spite your face.

The problem is that the rest of us have to pay for this forgiveness.

"I had to do , therefore everybody has to do " isn't a great argument, but "you had to do , but I don't want to so I'm going to make you do so I don't have to" is even worse. It's like forcing someone who just finally managed to rebuild their house after it burned down to share their house with another fire victim for free.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#192

Post by vkou »

FT_intern wrote: post #177
vkou wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame that a well rounded education doesn't solely consist of studying entirely apolitical, classic European thinkers. It's almost as if there is more to the world than Central and Mediterranean Europe. And heaven forbid, students get exposed to radical ideas in their philosophy classes. We can't have any of that, here.

The author's criticism was about replacement of old ideas, not addition of new ideas

Those old ideas provide a very occicentric, and, by extension, biased framework for understanding the world.

There are plenty of old ideas that are excluded by what most universities define to be classical education - yet the complaints are about lack of coverage for Kant and Plato, rather then, say Confuscius, or Cornel West. (For examples both less, and more relevant to modern thought.)

The complaint was directed at a Philosophy education, not at a Western Philosophy education. If said top-20 college promised the latter, and ignored the classics, that would be reason to complain. Otherwise, it's like complaining that your History class didn't solely focus on America.

The other assumption that I call into question is that Freud, Kant, etc are 'apolitical' figures - whereas a feminist writer is 'political.' This is, quite plainly, nonsense.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#193

Post by logfromblammo »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #183
logfromblammo wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. Disagreeing with the law obligates you to break it. Or at least it does according to Thoreau, Jefferson, Gandhi, ML King Jr, et al. But the difference between a law and a promissory note is that the legislature didn't get your explicit approval before passing the law. The promissory note has your signature on it, under a promise that you made to pay a certain amount at a certain time in exchange for…

This is kind of bullshit. The problem is assuming that borrowers are fiscally competent. We know this to be false, even among home buyers. 18 year olds, who have every adult that they trust telling them they must go to college and take these loans, don't stand a chance. The loan industry not only knows this, but they optimize the system to capitalize on it. I don't think the student was represented when laws were pas…

You might also be able to argue that debts that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy represent a form of indentured servitude. And that is illegal now in the US, thanks to the 13th Amendment.

In fact, indentures were a better deal, because the indenturee was guaranteed to have the job necessary to fulfill the contract. Student loan issuers don't have to accept work in lieu of cash.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#194

Post by morgante »

n72 wrote: post #73
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #3

If this happens, do I get benefits on the debt I've already paid off? I would be pretty pissed if I didn't. I worked my ass off to pay my loans.

I absolutely understand the sentiment, but if there is legislation to forgive student loans it will not have actually hurt you. In other words, such anger at the forgiveness of student loans really just comes down to envy - namely that other people received a benefit you didn't.

> forgive student loans it will not have actually hurt you

Of course it will. That's money which the government loses.

I pay tens of thousands in taxes every year.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#195

Post by outside1234 »

jonahrd wrote: post #184
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

You may be right that it's a poor financial decision, but I still hope to one day live in a country where people can pursue education in any subject matter (not just STEM/other money makers) for the pure purpose of educational fulfillment. That can only be done with a system that helps pay for education instead of letting the market decide which degrees are most valuable in terms of pure capitalistic measures

Let me know when you find the hole in the ground that is shooting money up into the air that enables us to have luxuries like this.

Frankly, we have thousands of other problems, highlighted by basic health care, that we should probably prioritize first.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#196

Post by sosborn »

rayiner wrote: post #175
leereeves wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I make way more than that, what are you thinking??" Way more than that being $30/hour = $60K per year.

Which is the same as the peak career earnings for someone with a liberal arts bachelors degree that doesn't pursue graduate education.

> peak career earnings

I make much more than that and I only have an B.A. in English.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#197

Post by morgante »

viraptor wrote: post #188
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

I agree with the conclusion, but: > other people's bad financial decisions? This is different than someone taking a bad loan on their own. This is the case of your parents and grandparents, your government, the schools, the newspapers, etc. all effectively telling you that it's a good idea to invest in education. So good that in a country that loves its liberties and independence so much people will fight against pub…

> Surely they can't be all wrong... I cannot honestly blame people for believing the lie in this case.

I absolutely can. I grew up listening to all those same messages and hearing all the same things.

I also realized that it might be a good idea to do some college research and to apply for various scholarships.

High school seniors aren't babies. If they're good enough to get into a college, they should be smart enough to do the minimal research which it takes to find out which degrees are valuable and which aren't. There are tons of resources online to learn about this stuff.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#198

Post by atombath »

massysett wrote: post #174
atombath wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume if forgiveness ever occurred, it would need to be respected as income for the debtor(so then IRS gets involved) simply to prevent fraud. Much in the same way that charge-offs are currently taxable income(1099-C). There's simply no way that you will want to forgive the student debt... so pay them off if you can! The punishments of 'forgiveness' simply have to outweigh the benefits or the system will be gamed…

You can pay back $100 or pay 40% tax on $100 of forgiveness, which is $40. The choice is clear here. The only wrinkle is that the $40 might be due all at once. But if that's a concern, saving up ahead of time to pay back the $40 is still better than paying off the $100.

Of course a tax percentage of a value is going to be less than the value. The main penalty would be the tanking of your credit rating. The effect it would have on an interest rate for future loans would be very significant.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#199

Post by morgante »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #180
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

TL;DR The health of the economy is more important than your moral high ground. Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them), but we'll still give them a mortgage 3 years after their foreclosure; the economy needs the monetary velocity to survive.

> Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them)

Like I said in my comment, I recognize that there needs to be some option for people who can't possibly repay their student loans. Defaulting on your mortgage is not consequence-free: you lose your home and hurt your credit. We don't let people just forgive their mortgages and keep their homes without hurting their credit, but that's what a lot of people are advocating for student loans.

We should treat student loan debt like any other debt.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#200

Post by deegles »

morgante wrote: post #199
toomuchtodo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR The health of the economy is more important than your moral high ground. Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them), but we'll still give them a mortgage 3 years after their foreclosure; the economy needs the monetary velocity to survive.

> Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them) Like I said in my comment, I recognize that there needs to be some option for people who can't possibly repay their student loans. Defaulting on your mortgage is not consequence-free: you lose your home and hurt your credit. We don't let people just forgive their mortgages and keep their homes without hurting their…

How would one repossess an education? Isn't that the reason student loans are not dischargeable?
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