Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 213 posts

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#191

Post by Steeeve »

devishard wrote: post #153
Steeeve wrote: post #135

This just isn't true. Compared to most of the U.S. I make a lot of money (Software Engineer in Silicon Valley). I have kids a few years from college, so this topic weighs on me. I ran my financials through Stanford's cost calculator (Stanford is among the most expensive schools), and my expected contribution would be under $10K / year. Yes, it costs $65K+ / year for tuition, housing, etc., but the reality is that tho…

1. Stanford is an outlier in terms of financial aid--they provide far more financial aid than most schools. 2. Good luck getting into Stanford.

I just ran through the same calculator at UC Berkeley. The difference in expectations is minimal.

I then ran through the CSU calculator. The cost is actually doubled for CSUs, which have a lower total cost, but no grant/scholarship programs offered directly through the university financial aid office. My own experience with that environment tells me there are plenty of grant/scholarship options.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#192

Post by gozur88 »

jamesroseman wrote: post #189
gozur88 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you use a resume as a litmus test for "smart programmers" as opposed to those faking it, you're undoubtably going to get a bunch of people who went to the best possible schools. Yes, and that's exactly what happens at the most desirable companies. >Maybe there's someone just as smart at your local state school who couldn't afford CMU who would bring a completely different mindset and style of thinking, but you'll…

I'd wager there are more people who have snuck into top-tier universities than there are people who are there without paying/accruing massive debt. This is also ignoring the fact that Ivies and other top-tier universities are overwhelming homogenous. More to the point, the thing everyone in a top-10 school has in common is that they're really good at looking good on paper. It says near nothing about what they'll cont…

>I'd wager there are more people who have snuck into top-tier universities than there are people who are there without paying/accruing massive debt.

Probably. The people who go without paying are pretty desirable from the university's point of view.

>This is also ignoring the fact that Ivies and other top-tier universities are overwhelming homogenous.

I'm not a worshiper of diversity for its own sake. The benefits seem pretty theoretical, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest homogeneous populations function better.

>More to the point, the thing everyone in a top-10 school has in common is that they're really good at looking good on paper.

Being able to do things well on paper is pretty important in 21st century US. It's also important to hire people who can figure out what your customers (internal and external) want and put it on paper in a way that will make the sale.

>It says near nothing about what they'll contribute on a team, how they'll function with other people, or base programming skill.

That's all true. The problem is we don't really have any way to get a good picture that kind of stuff outside of hiring everyone and culling the ones we don't want. Pretty much every applicant to an ivy league school lists a nonprofit on their application these days, and 99% of them are bullshit.

>My only point is that if a company seeks diversity, they should seek it in all avenues.

I suppose, if that's your goal. Were I running a company I'd be mostly focused on profitability.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#193

Post by legutierr »

rayiner wrote: post #140
legutierr wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If some music, art or writing program is a top program, we want the best, most passionate people capable doing that work to be there, regardless of how much money their parents had. We all benefit if our most talented artists, musicians, writers and filmmakers are able to work in their chosen field. It's how culture moves forward, and it makes all our lives better. What you seem to be saying is that only the rich and…

False premise: education is necessary for society to develop musicians, artists, and writers. Hemingway was a "mere" high school graduate.

I did not mean to imply that a formal arts education is necessary to train a great artist. But you seem to be saying that great artists don't need any education or training at all!

Hemingway did not spring to life a great writer. He might have only completed high school, but high school was enough to get him a reporting job at age 18, and it was a reporting job that sent him to Paris, where he found Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, James Joyce, F Scott Fitzgerald. I would call that an education.

The original point I tried to make was this: by expecting all poor and middle-class kids to spend their formative years preparing for practical, low-risk careers -- at the expense of their artistic "passions" -- we are depriving ourselves of their creative output.

Things were different 100 years ago. If Hemingway didn't go to college, it was because he didn't need to. He was lucky enough to live at a time when you could work as a journalist at age 18 having no greater qualifications than a high school diploma and a few articles published in the school newspaper.

What would Hemingway do today? Following gist's advice, he would go to college and study computer science or biomedical engineering. Or maybe he would substitute San Fransisco for Paris, and instead of A Farewell To Arms we would have another social-some-shit to add to the cannon of timeless iPhone apps.

But study journalism or English literature with a view towards becoming a reporter or (gasp) a fiction writer? Out of the question. You know those majors won't go anywhere. You need to earn a living.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#194

Post by jamesroseman »

gozur88 wrote: post #192
jamesroseman wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager there are more people who have snuck into top-tier universities than there are people who are there without paying/accruing massive debt. This is also ignoring the fact that Ivies and other top-tier universities are overwhelming homogenous. More to the point, the thing everyone in a top-10 school has in common is that they're really good at looking good on paper. It says near nothing about what they'll cont…

>I'd wager there are more people who have snuck into top-tier universities than there are people who are there without paying/accruing massive debt. Probably. The people who go without paying are pretty desirable from the university's point of view. >This is also ignoring the fact that Ivies and other top-tier universities are overwhelming homogenous. I'm not a worshiper of diversity for its own sake. The benefits se…

I think maybe we just have an idealogical difference of opinion here, and that's fine.

It's my belief that if you take 10 similar people and give them a problem to solve, they'll all solve it the same way. Whereas if you take 10 different people and give them a problem to solve, they'll each individually be challenged to think differently and question their assumptions. If I ran a company I'd prefer the latter, because intuition tells me it will lead to the best answers (people questioning their opinions means thinking through whether they're as well founded as they hope, and teases out the problems with those opinions).

I think this innovation goes hand in hand with profitability. I'm not saying I wouldn't pick the creative driven innovative Harvard grad every time -- I'm saying I'd pick the creative driven innovative community college grad every time over the Harvard grad with the same background as everyone else in the company.

> Being able to do things well on paper is pretty important in 21st century US.

Except when it comes time to actually do work, it's not. The overlap in relevant skills between convincing people you're a good engineer and being a good engineer is very small. One is mostly about leveraging your background and social engineering, the other is about how you solve problems. While one could argue that being good on paper is good indicator of drive, I'd counter that a candidate with drive but without skills is less preferable than a candidate with skills.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#195

Post by nojvek »

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

It still surprises me that the worlds largest economy still has ridiculous fees for college. I wonder what impact this has over a 100 year period.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#196

Post by devishard »

Steeeve wrote: post #191
devishard wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Stanford is an outlier in terms of financial aid--they provide far more financial aid than most schools. 2. Good luck getting into Stanford.

I just ran through the same calculator at UC Berkeley. The difference in expectations is minimal. I then ran through the CSU calculator. The cost is actually doubled for CSUs, which have a lower total cost, but no grant/scholarship programs offered directly through the university financial aid office. My own experience with that environment tells me there are plenty of grant/scholarship options.

I'm not sure why you think looking at three California University calculators for one year's tuition is any more a representative sample than your previous anecdotes. You're disagreeing with national surveys of the cost that people actually pay over four years. You're disagreeing based on a limited sample of promotional calculators of one year cost from one area of the country.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#197

Post by Steeeve »

devishard wrote: post #196
Steeeve wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just ran through the same calculator at UC Berkeley. The difference in expectations is minimal. I then ran through the CSU calculator. The cost is actually doubled for CSUs, which have a lower total cost, but no grant/scholarship programs offered directly through the university financial aid office. My own experience with that environment tells me there are plenty of grant/scholarship options.

I'm not sure why you think looking at three California University calculators for one year's tuition is any more a representative sample than your previous anecdotes. You're disagreeing with national surveys of the cost that people actually pay over four years. You're disagreeing based on a limited sample of promotional calculators of one year cost from one area of the country.

Because out-of-state tuition costs are dramatically higher. I could look at other Ivy's, but they would be very similar to Stanford. The CSU calculator is for all CSUs (~20 schools). All UCs will have similar costs and financial aid scenarios.

If I lived in Alabama, my income wouldn't be relevant. I have no idea what I would make in that part of the country.

What I do know, and what is plainly obvious, is that this topic is fueled by fear mongering.

Tuition costs have risen and will continue to rise. College is a tough financial investment and has been for generations. As somebody who is going through the process in the very near future, I have to look at the reality and not the press snippets and public discourse that arises from them. This particular study completely ignores the availability of scholarships and grants in the private and public sectors. The UC and Stanford calculators I pointed out took that into consideration. The CSU calculator did not.

I wouldn't exactly call them promotional calculators.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#198

Post by ruste »

camel_Snake wrote: post #170
tn13 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American kids are not doing the cost-benefit analysis and they alone are to be blamed for it. For example. For many prospective college students, the trades might be a much more lucrative option. Using the example of plumbing, the average plumber earns $53,820 per year with the employer paying the apprentice a wage and training. (This money is for expert plumber. When adjusted to experience etc. it is around $20k per…

I'm not sure putting all the blame on these kids is fair. If we as a country have decided that those under 21 do not possess the appropriate reasoning skills or responsibility to have a beer, how do we accept that they have enough of the above to make such a large financial decision? If I had applied for a $50,000 loan to start my own business at 18 from most banks I'm betting I would have been rejected. Yet we're ok…

You're absolutely right. The drinking age is too high. 18 is perfectly reasonable.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#199

Post by ruste »

quaffapint wrote: post #180
atarian wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not send your future kids to community college and then have them transfer?

That's the plan for our son who will be going in a couple years. He doesn't know what he wants to do, so why pay much more (not that its super cheap, but cheaper than many other options). I myself transferred schools multiple times - the greatest thing is the credits transfer, but the gpa does not, so if you screw up a few classes in the beginning, you can reset that. In the end people really only look what you list…

My transfer credit was included in my GPA. :( It isn't too bad, but still.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#200

Post by ruste »

osmala wrote: post #110
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #3

My partner and I - both well-educated and well-employed professionals - sketched out our long-term financial plan recently. The only way we envisioned owning property would be to build our own a considerable distance away from our small city's center. That alone proved to be a significant part of our budget, which is already under considerable pressure from student loans and car payments. We estimated the expenses fo…

College can never become too costly for a single child of two well-educated and well-employed parents with 18+ year career behind them. It's just a fact that in such situation colleges will start decreasing cost and tuition to get students in. Also cost increases are stuff that look good in marketing material to increase desirability of that college over other colleges and that trend will hit a wall. Also there is in…

From what I've seen, a lot of it is people getting used to a standard of living above their means and being totally okay with going into debt to maintain it. People get used to having a lot of things they really don't need and end up spending a considerable amount of money on them. Upgrading phones through their cell phone provider for instance. I know a lot of people that just think "oh yay! I'm due for an upgrade." I think many don't realize that the phone isn't free. They could buy the phone outright and it'd be cheaper. They just pay for the phone through a higher cell phone bill for several months. Things like that add up.
Post reply on HN