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College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

nytimes.com

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Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#131

Post by tptacek »

radarsat1 wrote: post #125
gist wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed Well a good start might be simply avoiding majors that you know will go nowhere, don't you think? Like music, art and certain liberal arts. Even when I went to school it was known to be hard to get a job in those fields. But yet people still choose them and tried to "follow their passion". My passion was to learn something where I…

So is your answer that people who choose "music, art and certain liberal arts" deserve the problems they get from college debt? Does that imply that you are fine with a society where these career paths effectively do not exist?

I don't think the word "deserve" has to factor into it, but there's an ROI function not only for your major, but for the college you choose to pursue that major at.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#132

Post by sotojuan »

samfisher83 wrote: post #124
sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

Depending on what school you go to in Texas it isn't that easy to get top 8%. Some schools like Clements which is 50% Asian its quite hard to get into top 8% even if you have pretty good grades.

Yep, realized that after a bit. My school was pretty relaxed and had ~600 students per grade so not too bad. Another one in the same district had large Asian and Hindu populations (maybe because it was close to NASA) and I remember hearing how competitive it got. Same with Houston schools like Bellaire.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#133

Post by [deleted] »

bpchaps wrote: post #89
jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

Absolutely. Most of those my age who didn't go into tech and got 'regular' jobs are absolutely filled to the brim with debt with zero way out. Those here in Chicago who have tech jobs aren't able to find jobs that match their skill. My highschool was mostly in the lower/lower-middle class range with upper-middle in honor's programs. Multiple times per year, they gave presentations about the absolute, unwavering impor…

[deleted]

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#134

Post by massysett »

"a college education is being priced out of the reach of middle-class and even upper-middle-class families."

If this were true, we would see one of two things: (1) colleges would be empty and closing their doors, or (2) we'd have an enormous debt bubble.

(1) is obviously false.

(2) is more interesting and, indeed, debt levels may be high. However, in a development that most pieces like this ignore, the federal government now has significant loan repayment forgiveness programs, along with income-sensitive repayment plans.

So no, with huge programs that will wipe student debt clean, I laugh in the face of a headline that asserts that college is "unaffordable even in higher income brackets."

Look here:

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/understand/plans/in...

"Most federal student loans are eligible for at least one income-driven repayment plan. If your income is low enough, your payment could be as low as $0 per month."

So $0 a month is unaffordable??

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#135

Post by Steeeve »

This just isn't true. Compared to most of the U.S. I make a lot of money (Software Engineer in Silicon Valley). I have kids a few years from college, so this topic weighs on me. I ran my financials through Stanford's cost calculator (Stanford is among the most expensive schools), and my expected contribution would be under $10K / year. Yes, it costs $65K+ / year for tuition, housing, etc., but the reality is that those costs are not nearly as terrifying when you factor in financial aid programs that are available.

I remember how terrified I was of my student loans in my day. I also remember how awesome it felt when they got paid off. This has turned into a political topic and whenever that happens logic and facts go out the window in favor of emotion triggering pseudo-statistics.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#136

Post by dv_dt »

tptacek wrote: post #127
dv_dt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

You don't generally pull the trigger on six-figure medical or law school debt in your teens.

Ok, how about a straight undergrad budget at a public university.

https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

Depending on circumstances $25k to $52k for next year with a 10% increase over the next three to four years...

http://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-table...

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#137

Post by throwawaysocks »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #107
bpchaps wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Most of those my age who didn't go into tech and got 'regular' jobs are absolutely filled to the brim with debt with zero way out. Those here in Chicago who have tech jobs aren't able to find jobs that match their skill. My highschool was mostly in the lower/lower-middle class range with upper-middle in honor's programs. Multiple times per year, they gave presentations about the absolute, unwavering impor…

Well as much as I appreciate your earlier points, I do want to comment: > The culture around college necessity is incredibly frustrating. To make matters worse, when the subject comes up, many people say things like "Not going to college worked for you, but it tends not to for everybody else and it worked for me blah blah." It doesn't ever, every push the conversation forward. It's a weird, frustrating form of surviv…

> temporarily flips around due to oversupply, like we've seen in some industries, e.g. MBAs at various times, or lawyers recently).

Or software engineers in the near future, given the hockey-stick growth in enrollments...

which brings up another important benefit of a high-quality tertiary education: when done right, it reduces the barrier to entry for a variety of professions in a variety of industries.

If the bubble exists and bursts tomorrow, people who went to university and obtained an education in both CS and in something else will have an alternative to temporary unemployment. Those who went directly into industry jobs out of high school are less likely to have a broad set of skills and knowledge to fall back on.

The benefit is not only to the individual -- countries with adaptable work forces have adaptable economies; countries with work forces that are trained exclusively for this decade's cog factories (the engine plants of mom's world are the app dev shops of today) will lag behind when global demand for cogs dies off and widgets become the new lexus of growth and prosperity.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#138

Post by radarsat1 »

tptacek wrote: post #131
radarsat1 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is your answer that people who choose "music, art and certain liberal arts" deserve the problems they get from college debt? Does that imply that you are fine with a society where these career paths effectively do not exist?

I don't think the word "deserve" has to factor into it, but there's an ROI function not only for your major, but for the college you choose to pursue that major at.

Agreed, but that's a problem. Or at least, as long as we decide that "music, art and liberal arts" are things we want people to be able to do. If we decide those are not good things for people to do, then sure, make it difficult for them, but at least let's put the cards on the table. Otherwise I find that this train of thought has a "blaming the victim" element to it that I find distasteful.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#139

Post by beatpanda »

Why is every other advanced economy in the world able to deal with this, but America can't? People who respond in discussions like this that the real problem must be so many greedy kids wanting things like a good job, financial stability, etc need to first confront the fact that this is a uniquely American problem.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#140

Post by rayiner »

legutierr wrote: post #115
gist wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed Well a good start might be simply avoiding majors that you know will go nowhere, don't you think? Like music, art and certain liberal arts. Even when I went to school it was known to be hard to get a job in those fields. But yet people still choose them and tried to "follow their passion". My passion was to learn something where I…

If some music, art or writing program is a top program, we want the best, most passionate people capable doing that work to be there, regardless of how much money their parents had. We all benefit if our most talented artists, musicians, writers and filmmakers are able to work in their chosen field. It's how culture moves forward, and it makes all our lives better. What you seem to be saying is that only the rich and…

False premise: education is necessary for society to develop musicians, artists, and writers. Hemingway was a "mere" high school graduate.
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