America knows everything • Hacker News Board

Re: America knows everything

#181

Post by drewcrawford » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 9:50 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #154

foxylad wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the law - it's the way somone who broke that law was treated like a suspected drug-dealer. Sure, technically they had the right to deport him. But doing so in this case was heavy handed, and adding strip-searches and refusing to let him contact his girlfriend was purely obnoxious. Although not directly linked to terrorism, this kind of behaviour is condoned now because the fear of immigrants generated by "te…

People keep repeating that he broke a law and was planning to work for pay, the pay being a single meal offered by his host at one of the coffee houses he was going to play some songs at. I have not seen any evidence though that someone giving you one dinner during a trip qualifies as pay in exchange for work. It seems to me that it is a fairly common occurrence that one is treated to a meal by a friend or associate…

> I have not seen any evidence that someone giving you one dinner during a trip qualifies as pay in exchange for work

You are approaching this from entirely the wrong direction. Your statement is like saying "I have not seen any evidence that so-and-so is innocent of the crime".

It is the presumption in the United States that someone applying for a "non immigrant" (visitor) visa intends to illegally immigrate to the United States. And so it is the burden of the visa applicant to prove otherwise.

There does not need to be any evidence that one dinner during a trip qualifies as pay for his entry in the United States to be lawfully denied.

Re: America knows everything

#182

Post by ye » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:49 AM UTC

w3dt wrote: post #141

ye wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're working as hard as I am, then they should get paid as much Yeah, and everyone should get a free house and a puppy. Now back to the real world.

It's not like you get anything if you move to US. You have to work for everything yourself. You don't even get healthcare if you can't afford it. Stop being stupid. Salaries should be paid by how you perform not by your nationality.

> Salaries should be paid by how you perform not by your nationality

Nobody said people should be paid by their nationality.

US is a multinational country.

Even within the US the salaries vary a lot depending on where you are.

You seem to confuse the real world with your imagination.

Re: America knows everything

#183

Post by shrnky » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:13 PM UTC

alive-or-not wrote: post #51

wmoxam wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home of the brave indeed

Land of the banksters, home of the sheeple ...

Ya, because the banksters are the ones invading my privacy. Last time I checked it was the current and previous president. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Re: America knows everything

#184

Post by alive-or-not » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 7:00 PM UTC

shrnky wrote: post #183

alive-or-not wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land of the banksters, home of the sheeple ...

Ya, because the banksters are the ones invading my privacy. Last time I checked it was the current and previous president. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

"Guns don't kill people"

Presidents are just tools in the hands of whoever owns the finance and media outlets.

Re: America knows everything

#185

Post by rhizome » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 7:37 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #165

brianfryer wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may make an observation, you're making a reductio ad absurdum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum ) argument.

Correct - is there something wrong with that kind of argument? Examining edge cases can be revealing. I replied to someone saying that these actions are never justified to anyone. But that's not true. Apparently everyone agrees it's OK to search a smuggler. What level of proof should CBP agents need to decide this? What other potential criminals should be searched? Someone that appears to be intending to reside or wo…

a supervisor should need to agree that the person poses a smuggling or other threat

Just a "threat?" How about evidence?

Re: America knows everything

#186

Post by wpietri » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:13 AM UTC

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #105

MichaelGG wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have no idea why anyone should be required to have a special visa to work in the US. Because we are selfish?" Seriously? If the US didn't have immigration requirements, half the world would move there, causing the society and infrastructure to collapse? I can't see how unrestricted immigration benefits the US at all (I'm not a US citizen).

Immigration wasn't restricted until the 20th century (in any meaningful way), and the US didn't seem to suffer too bad.

The Model T started production in 1908 and the first commerical airline flight was in 1914. The state of the art for sea transportation around then was the Titantic, which sank in 1912. So maybe that had something to do with it.

Re: America knows everything

#187

Post by wpietri » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:20 AM UTC

gaadd33 wrote: post #173

wpietri wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mexico has a similar law. Near where my parents live, they recently started enforcing it with some vigor. The problem being that foreign musicians (mostly Americans) were playing shows for "donations". Whether that was actual donations or bar owners donating was unclear, but either way it was plausible that these people were displacing musicians entitled to work. The shorter version: jackasses getting around a law ca…

How were they displacing musicians? If I'm in a place and I go see $BAND, I would assume I'm going to see $BAND, not some random local band.

Sure, but not everybody is like you. The random bands play at the random local bars. There, the music isn't the focus; it's more backdrop.

Re: America knows everything

#188

Post by wpietri » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:22 AM UTC

agarden wrote: post #69

wpietri wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mexico has a similar law. Near where my parents live, they recently started enforcing it with some vigor. The problem being that foreign musicians (mostly Americans) were playing shows for "donations". Whether that was actual donations or bar owners donating was unclear, but either way it was plausible that these people were displacing musicians entitled to work. The shorter version: jackasses getting around a law ca…

I have another interpretation: bad laws are impossible to enforce in a just way. I have no idea why anyone should be required to have a special visa to work in the US. Because we are selfish?

Perhaps you should try getting some idea, then. It's not like there hasn't been a ton written on this.

Re: America knows everything

#189

Post by jaeysin » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 11:51 PM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #151

jaeysin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to their rules, performing for free is acceptable: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html

Specifically denied is "paid performances, or any professional performance before a paying audience". If there was a cover charge to get in, it counts as work. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html

I think they vagueness of this points to part of the problem. There is no real specification of what makes an amateur performer in a musical event. I would assume since he was not contracted to receive a payment for his performance, it would be acceptable.

And just because there is a cover charge does not count as work. The cover charge is collected by the venue and does not mean he will get paid, which was specifically the case here.

Re: America knows everything

#190

Post by jaeysin » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 11:56 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #58

jaeysin wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true. He explained that we would write a travelogue (that would be published), explore the music scene, visit his aunt and play free shows (where he might receive tips). The article you linked says: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" It sounds like he would solidly qualify for that, considering it does not sound like…

Strictly speaking, isn't getting tips and food being paid? After all, don't food service workers get paid in tips?

No, I don't believe so. This is just done as a courtesy, for the audience to show their appreciation. It isn't even barter because there isn't a deliberate plan to exchange a good for a service. I suppose he could preemptively say, "I plan not to accept any free food or tips," but what good would that do really?