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America knows everything

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Re: America knows everything

#151

Post by unreal37 »

jaeysin wrote: post #36
unreal37 wrote: post #29

To play devil's advocate, he traveled to the U.S. with a guitar, had 5 shows booked in advance before his arrival, uses a pseudonym to perform and didn't declare any of this to the border officials. I think the article can also say he has a CD coming out soon. I can actually see why he was turned away. He's a musician, hoping to travel and do some shows in the U.S. for fun. You can't work in the U.S. without a work v…

According to their rules, performing for free is acceptable: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html

Specifically denied is "paid performances, or any professional performance before a paying audience". If there was a cover charge to get in, it counts as work.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html

Re: America knows everything

#152

Post by dreamfactory »

MichaelGG wrote: post #55
dreamfactory wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if this were the case (and there are challenges as outlined by other commenters), it is entirely and obviously disproportionate. Do you seriously find it acceptable for your tax dollars to be spent this way? Secondly, this all misses what I think was the real point of the story - that this is an outcome of the surveillance dragnet.

Please explain "surveillance dragnet" - I didn't see any evidence of that in the translated article. I saw some "I wonder how they found my stage name", but unless he's taken some large precautions, that doesn't seem too far-fetched for Google to handle...

He talked about them knowing about all his shows, stage name, and about facebook relationships. Translation is sketchy but he seems to be making a wider point that they knew about a bunch of stuff that would only be known by fairly broad and deep surveillance (as per the title of the article) and then applying a distorted interpretation.

Re: America knows everything

#153

Post by dec0dedab0de »

pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

Bullshit. This is someone who is on vacation, and happened to be playing music along the way. His only mistake was trusting in the rationality of people with badges. He should have borrowed a guitar after he got here.

Re: America knows everything

#154

Post by droithomme »

foxylad wrote: post #119
anigbrowl wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with the terrorists winning. The rather draconian immigration law was written in 1996. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_Immigration_Reform_and_...

It's not the law - it's the way somone who broke that law was treated like a suspected drug-dealer. Sure, technically they had the right to deport him. But doing so in this case was heavy handed, and adding strip-searches and refusing to let him contact his girlfriend was purely obnoxious. Although not directly linked to terrorism, this kind of behaviour is condoned now because the fear of immigrants generated by "te…

People keep repeating that he broke a law and was planning to work for pay, the pay being a single meal offered by his host at one of the coffee houses he was going to play some songs at.

I have not seen any evidence though that someone giving you one dinner during a trip qualifies as pay in exchange for work.

It seems to me that it is a fairly common occurrence that one is treated to a meal by a friend or associate while traveling.

Does anyone have actual references to law that make clear that being treated to dinner qualifies as being paid for work and thus triggers a visa violation and reasonable cause for deportation?

Re: America knows everything

#155

Post by unreal37 »

jaeysin wrote: post #32
pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

I don't think this is true. He explained that we would write a travelogue (that would be published), explore the music scene, visit his aunt and play free shows (where he might receive tips). The article you linked says: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" It sounds like he would solidly qualify for that, considering it does not sound like…

If the customers were paying an entry fee, a cover, then it qualifies as work. And you have to apply for a visa waiver in advance before leaving your country.

Re: America knows everything

#156

Post by megablast »

scelerat wrote: post #145
pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

Playing some music and having appreciative people feed you and give you bus money simply shouldn't be the sort of thing a Work Visa regulates. This guy was a student traveling around the US, meeting people and writing about it. This is education, not work, and he had a student visa. He just got a different education than he was expecting.

You are right, but the problem is where do you draw the line? And once you have a small intention of working and getting some reward, there is always a chance you might be doing other paid gigs that they could not find.

The simple fact is, if they have and reason to suspect you might be doing something a little wrong, they will deny your entry. Every country can and will do this. This is not an innocent until proven guilty option, this is ANY suspicious activity. You don't have a right to enter any country except your own.

Re: America knows everything

#157

Post by unreal37 »

scelerat wrote: post #147
unreal37 wrote: post #29

To play devil's advocate, he traveled to the U.S. with a guitar, had 5 shows booked in advance before his arrival, uses a pseudonym to perform and didn't declare any of this to the border officials. I think the article can also say he has a CD coming out soon. I can actually see why he was turned away. He's a musician, hoping to travel and do some shows in the U.S. for fun. You can't work in the U.S. without a work v…

> And performing for free is still work. Care to explain how?

He's not performing at his Aunt's retirement home. He's getting on a stage in a bar, at a predefined date and time, with those dates advertised and promoted on his blog, in front of paying customers, entertaining them. Some musicians get paid for that, and some do not. He's hoping people will tip him or feed him. It's work.

Re: America knows everything

#158

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

tn13 wrote: post #89
pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

Every now an then these kind of articles get popular on HN and someone points out that the person had done some wrong. I find it incredibly irritating. The reason why border security or any law enforcement agency exists is because we want to maintain reasonable order, one way to achieve it is enforcement of existing laws. But somehow enforcement of rules, some of which are highly questionable has taken center-stage o…

> operating out of paranoia, hitting those who cant hit back

It's "anarcho-tyranny." The paradigm governs much US domestic exercise of power. John Corzine walks free, but sellers of unpasteurized milk to willing and informed customers go to jail. Self admitted illegal aliens write op-eds unmolested, but a zero risk short term visitor is denied entry.

Re: America knows everything

#160

Post by JackFr »

I suppose it might be google translate, but this seems like a guy lying on his visa application, being rudely called out on it, and letting his fierce sense of entitlement take over.
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