America knows everything • Hacker News Board

Re: America knows everything

#171

Post by scelerat » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:09 AM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #157

scelerat wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And performing for free is still work. Care to explain how?

He's not performing at his Aunt's retirement home. He's getting on a stage in a bar, at a predefined date and time, with those dates advertised and promoted on his blog, in front of paying customers, entertaining them. Some musicians get paid for that, and some do not. He's hoping people will tip him or feed him. It's work.

There is less difference between those two scenarios than you might imagine at first glance.

Re: America knows everything

#172

Post by philwelch » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 3:53 AM UTC

jmduke wrote: post #170

philwelch wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's a tortured analogy if I've ever seen one.

Yeah, my point is that the two are in no way analogous.

It's a common expression. [1] In this context it means: this guy's treatment by the customs & border officials was so reprehensible and abusive that his legal right to enter the US is beside the point, just like how the actual merits of the play were beside the point for Mrs. Lincoln.

[1] https://www.google.com/#q=other%20than%20that%20mrs.%20linco...

Re: America knows everything

#173

Post by gaadd33 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:02 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #26

GauntletWizard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TSA has nothing to do with this interrogation, as bad as they are; Customs and Border Patrol are the offenders, here. And this guy made a critical mistake: He announced his intent to "work" in the United States; i.e. he was going to play shows. This requires a Visa, even for nonprofit purposes, which is a silly law, but it is the law.

Mexico has a similar law. Near where my parents live, they recently started enforcing it with some vigor. The problem being that foreign musicians (mostly Americans) were playing shows for "donations". Whether that was actual donations or bar owners donating was unclear, but either way it was plausible that these people were displacing musicians entitled to work. The shorter version: jackasses getting around a law ca…

How were they displacing musicians? If I'm in a place and I go see $BAND, I would assume I'm going to see $BAND, not some random local band.

Re: America knows everything

#174

Post by nolite » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:21 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #79

nisa wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have knowledge about the US border and visa requirements and procedures. But even if he did made a mistake wouldn't it be easier to inform him before he enters the plane? And avoid interrogating him without letting him know what the problem was? The process he got ranks pretty high on the crazy paranoid side. I'm sure there are ways to solve the security and visa issues in a way that does not leave traumatic…

But even if he did made a mistake wouldn't it be easier to inform him before he enters the plane? Some airports in EU countries (eg Shannon in Ireland) have pre-clearance for passengers to the US at the departure end, ie you go through US passport control first and when you get on the plane it is legally a domestic US flight. This is unusual however, just as Americans typically deal with EU passport control at the EU…

Any others like this in Europe? It makes soooo much more sense that way

Re: America knows everything

#175

Post by cgman » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:33 AM UTC

pudquick wrote: post #24

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he w…

The least they could do is bring in someone who speaks fluent German and try to figure out what's going on. Treat the man with respect and explain to him that he needed a visa to do what he's doing. This is no excuse for how terribly he was treated。

Re: America knows everything

#176

Post by rhizome » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:47 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #144

rhizome wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as they can just backtrack at the border and still get in. And that is bad, why?

If you take as a given that the US wants to enforce their immigration laws, allowing people to attempt to break the law with a penalty of them saying "ok just kidding" doesn't make much sense. It's like the liquids ban at airports. If you ARE caught with liquids, there's no penalty, you just throw them away. So it's not a disincentive to try to bring liquids aboard. Just keep trying until it works.

Each achieves the goal of keeping their intended contraband out, why make a big deal out of it? The angry boneheads at the TSA are not responsible enough to teach behavior modification.

Re: America knows everything

#177

Post by alexeisadeski3 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 4:53 AM UTC

dude3 wrote: post #133

dude3 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not the elite, they cater to the elite and special interests goals. China has 60 per cent of its $3.5tn foreign currency reserves invested in US assets. A housing program that offers green cards to foreigners who buy $500,000+ houses. How about the money going to US universities from 194,000 Chinese students. The $8.2 billion Chinese buyers spent in the 12 months to March 2013 of $70 billion on real estate.…

The Chinese elite/the ones making the rules that you refer of, are the ones buying the houses. Who can buy a 10th house a 7,900 miles away that costs 2.5 million in cash? Mark Z Yes. If your argument were true, we would see relaxed immigration/TSA because of Obama. But, this article leads me to believe that it has gotten worse, not because of Obama, but because of the system. The birth factor might be considered a th…

As a matter of fact I do have an explanation:

The US is a huge country with a ridiculous mess of overlapping laws and massive bureaucracy. It's a legalistic nation, one in which the laws are typically followed to a 'T' regardless of how much sense it makes. This leads to all manner of weird stuff happening.

Re: America knows everything

#178

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 5:18 AM UTC

nraynaud wrote: post #115

anigbrowl wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even if he did made a mistake wouldn't it be easier to inform him before he enters the plane? Some airports in EU countries (eg Shannon in Ireland) have pre-clearance for passengers to the US at the departure end, ie you go through US passport control first and when you get on the plane it is legally a domestic US flight. This is unusual however, just as Americans typically deal with EU passport control at the EU…

There is a big thing with US travel: ESTA, advanced passenger information, and the airline thing whose name I don't know (when you check in, they already ask nosy questions about your travel and your girlfriend). So they had a lot of opportunities to stop him before he got in the plane without putting up with the burden of a US visa. They chose to let him come knowing they would refuse him. When you try to go to the…

I haven't looked at the ESTA thing in a long time, but from what I remember it does ask explicitly whether you plan to work in the US etc. etc. If you tell a border inspector that you're planning to play at a music festival then naturally he's going to assume you mean ot engage in commercial activity. It is up to the individual to read up on the requirements and exercise some basic common sense (ie customs/immigration officials tend to be pedantic bureaucrats wherever you go, so be circumspect).

Sorry, but I think you're projecting your biases here with comments like 'they chose to let him come, knowing they would refuse him.' My reading is that he probably answered 'no' to all the ESTA questions and then confused the CBP agent by giving contradictory answers to his questions. I'm European myself so I'm not carrying a particular torch for US border agents here.

Re: America knows everything

#179

Post by pjlegato » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 5:22 AM UTC

jansen wrote: post #110

pjlegato wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say they weren't respectful. I said they cannot be described as hospitable or friendly, which is true. German border guards are very professional and respectful -- they follow the rules exactly -- but they're not friendly. They're rather cold.

Fair enough. They are cold or better 'neutral'. I'd take cold and neutral any time over judgmental and degrading.

I've come into the US many times, and personally witnessed thousands of people being granted entry into the US with nothing but professionalism. Cases such as this are certainly rare.

There will always be a few people in any large group who treat others badly, and US border guards are no exception. I'm sure we could find rare similar cases in Germany or anywhere else, too.

Re: America knows everything

#180

Post by jamesaguilar » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 5:46 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #126

MichaelGG wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so we're clear, you're against strip searching anyone for anything, ever? So, if someone was smuggling in rare species or ivory or other contraband, the CBP should do what exactly?

Look, if one diversionary tactic doesn't work, that the TSA was just trying to make sure the IRS got its due (or whatever), that doesn't mean you move to another one in the form of a strawman, extrapolating to the most extreme case you can think of.

Hmm, alternately, don't make sweeping, unjustified proclamations?