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TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

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Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#181
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone thought that as new countries got richer, they would follow in the steps of western values (democracy, free markets, etc.). This is the key idea that has failed: the idea that prosperity equals or leads to social liberalism and human rights, or that the two are interdependent. This idea appears to be wrong, having been disproven by China. Totalitarianism and prosperity can co-exist just fine. Totalitariani…

Yes, pretty much agree. I'll say that in the end people want their freedom. I didn't believe this until the lockdown. Being told what to do is something that makes you instantly appreciate freedom. There will always be revolt, given enough time. CCP have outdone themselves in that department though. They've learnt from USSR and Cuba. In USSR/Cuba people know. They talk to outsiders and realize the don't live like the…

The CCP is also building a surveillance state that may allow them to preemptively shut down any dissent before it gains any traction and do so in real time. Unlike most Western states there isn't even a pretense of legal or constitutional restraint. They can surveil with total impunity and more importantly use that data with total impunity. Western governments are at least constrained on the second part if not the first.

That is fucking scary. We have invented a set of technologies that could be used to create an un-overthrowable dictatorship and permanently enslave the human race... to get people to click ads.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a bit late for that. Not sure if it is too late though. Without changing a few essential philosophies such as consumerism the whole world is dependent on China’s manufacture strength. Without scooping heavily into the resouces of the top 1% who benefited most from globalization this whole thing is also impossible to achieve. Without taxing the corporations a higher rate the middleclass won’t be able to recover.…

Oh, it's super late! In the short term, China will definitely be the largest economy (it's just about demographics + GDP). The only thing that could challenge that is: 1) World war (please no) 2) China is chopped up (but that's why they crack down on Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc) So I think we might see another rebranding about what it means to be the n1 economy. Or they might come up with a new metric hehe. The fact of th…

How about the top down governing approach that works in some situations and is a disaster in others? Currently favorable but times change.

Second, we should not hope that an opponent does worse than us to make us look better but we should simply better ourselves in the first place. Currently I'm seeing only decline and disunity in the western civilization, very short term thinking and lack of vision, but I'm aware that's just a phase that is possible to flip anytime.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#183
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's about 85.3 billion reasons a year for them to not stand up to the CCP and in the end Apple's interest in privacy is mostly a tool to differentiate its offerings from the competition so they can sell people stuff.

It's a $2.2 trillion dollar company with $200 billion in cash. They can easily afford to do the right thing. If they offered a private device and said to all governments "take it or leave it" then those governments would answer only to their people if they banned the device. Of course, name one public corporation that would leave a little cash on the table, ever, to do the right thing.

Google completely pulled out of China and practically all their products are banned & blocked in China as a result. Although considering most people don't even mention it and are happy to excuse companies like Apple, it's more of an example of how utterly meaningless it is for a company to do something like this. I'm sure Google, Apple, and their competitors will never repeat this mistake again.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#184
1. People outside doesn't understand how Chinese government works. This CAID is a project by advertising association, yes it is state backed. But these associations in China are commercial only and looks out to commercial interests.

In western public opinion, "state-backed" has negative connotations and government is a necessary evil. But in Chinese political philosophy that is not the case. Government has a positive role. Government can unite groups, form common interest, work across conflicting interests to create a win-win situation for everyone. In China, in a lot of situations people actual seek leadership from the government to create standards or common approaches. A lot of the industrial policies documents people outside have a problem with are actually demanded by private parties, and government is just answering their demands.

In this case it looks like the industry is driven by commercial interests to develop this technical solution. If the Chinese government wants to impose this kind of tracking to track people's activities online, it will need to use its executive power. And that involves the following steps: 1. Chinese central government announces direction to create this kind of tracking system. 2. Departments in state counsel start draft 《管理条例》and releases it public solicitation 3. 《管理条例》goes into effect 4. national people's congress drafting and passing laws. All of these will involve public disclosure. But there is no sign of any of this from the government.

People can debate whether the tracking involved here is okay or not. But there is no sign here saying the government is designing this and mandating it in order to track people.

Also Apple could try to close the "loophole" used here. Maybe the Chinese advertising industry will get pissed and demand the government to do something. But I doubt any legal actions will be taken. First, legally Apple doesn't break any Chinese laws. Second, Chinese government needs to be law abiding and rule based to attract foreign investments, which is crucial to the economy.

2. This article is accusing Tiktok of implementing this. But this is a project under discussion within China, likely only to be used within China, and Bytedance's apps in China, like douyin. Tiktok and Douyin are separate apps, run by separate management. TikTok by TikTok US, while Bytedance China runs all Chinese related business. The parent Bytedance is incorporated in Cayman islands. Hence Chinese laws do not apply to the parent and TikTok US. TikTok US is ought to follow US laws, customs, expectations and values. Of course its fine to pressure TikTok and Bytedance to not implement this in China as well. But this article's tone is implying Chinese government controls these entities and trying to track people everywhere. That is simply not true. The government 1) is not pushing to do so 2) doesn't have the means to do it. Even if Chinese government is tries to force Bytedance to share tiktok data, Bytedance can refuse, what can it do? It could only arrest Bytedance management or fine the company. Is there any of that happening? I am seeing a lot of anti-china ccp videos on TikTok. Just because the company is founded by a Chinese person doesn't mean it will be political and abide by the rules in china.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#185

As much as I like Apple products, it looks like the privacy buck stops at China. The western world needs to desperately work on making their supply chains independent of the CCP, lest they'd like their supply chains to be poisoned at some point in the future. I'm a big fan of Purism and everything that they are doing. I hope their software and hardware matures with the same level of polish we've come to know and expe…

The article doesn’t really talk about supply chain constraints. It talks more about the threat of losing market access

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#186
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone thought that as new countries got richer, they would follow in the steps of western values (democracy, free markets, etc.). This is the key idea that has failed: the idea that prosperity equals or leads to social liberalism and human rights, or that the two are interdependent. This idea appears to be wrong, having been disproven by China. Totalitarianism and prosperity can co-exist just fine. Totalitariani…

Yes, pretty much agree. I'll say that in the end people want their freedom. I didn't believe this until the lockdown. Being told what to do is something that makes you instantly appreciate freedom. There will always be revolt, given enough time. CCP have outdone themselves in that department though. They've learnt from USSR and Cuba. In USSR/Cuba people know. They talk to outsiders and realize the don't live like the…

Do people want their freedom? For many people even today there’s a strong desire for comfort, familiarity, duty, etc over freedom. We aren’t allowed to urinate in public, even if we are careful to avoid making a mess, a health hazard, or to flash anyone - because we’ve deemed that freedom not worth the costs to comfort in walking your streets without people peeing in public. You can’t own military grade artillery anymore, you can’t curse on the radio, you can’t work as a child, you can’t purchase cigarettes under 18, you can’t even legally drive or even prove your capable of driving safely before 16 (much less vote). There’s plenty of freedoms we forgo for some degree of security and comfort, and we wanted a different balance of freedom, security, and comfort just a few years ago, or decades ago, and we’ll likely want a different balance in 10 more years. Plenty of people in 2020 were totally fine with fines and enforced curfews in light of protests, riots, and pandemic. Freedom doesn’t seem like a true north for humans

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting kind of semantic. Theoretically, No company "needs" to be in business at all. If Chinese consumer market growth continues as it has been, it may the biggest market for Apple. Hard to be the largest luxury goods company in the world without the largest luxury goods market... OP is right. This gives China influence. Supply chain influence is a minor thing, relative to " I'm your biggest customer " influe…

Why I don't like the "needs to" framing, especially as it comes to business decisions, is that I think it takes the agency out of the process. Too many of my friends and family seem to assume that just because there are customers willing to pay or cheaper labor, a company must automatically do a certain thing unless the government makes a law to prevent them from doing it. I guess that's why I like the "chooses to" f…

IDK if the philosophy of it matters all that much. Apple is, likely, going to grow in China. We don't have to solve the "agency question" to know this.

That said, I think there is a decent amount of determinism at play here. It's like the "why are all politicians such politicians?" problem. The companies with an interest in entering the Chinese market will, mostly, do it. It's predictable. Predictable isn't determinism, but it's en route.

For a more poetic take, I'll paraphrase leonard cohen on "do you believe in free will?":

I think free will exists, but I think it's over-rated. Mostly, we act because we are compelled to.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#188
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, pretty much agree. I'll say that in the end people want their freedom. I didn't believe this until the lockdown. Being told what to do is something that makes you instantly appreciate freedom. There will always be revolt, given enough time. CCP have outdone themselves in that department though. They've learnt from USSR and Cuba. In USSR/Cuba people know. They talk to outsiders and realize the don't live like the…

The CCP is also building a surveillance state that may allow them to preemptively shut down any dissent before it gains any traction and do so in real time. Unlike most Western states there isn't even a pretense of legal or constitutional restraint. They can surveil with total impunity and more importantly use that data with total impunity . Western governments are at least constrained on the second part if not the f…

CCP are a bunch of ignorant mediocres. Don’t give them more merit than they deserve

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#189
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, pretty much agree. I'll say that in the end people want their freedom. I didn't believe this until the lockdown. Being told what to do is something that makes you instantly appreciate freedom. There will always be revolt, given enough time. CCP have outdone themselves in that department though. They've learnt from USSR and Cuba. In USSR/Cuba people know. They talk to outsiders and realize the don't live like the…

Do people want their freedom? For many people even today there’s a strong desire for comfort, familiarity, duty, etc over freedom. We aren’t allowed to urinate in public, even if we are careful to avoid making a mess, a health hazard, or to flash anyone - because we’ve deemed that freedom not worth the costs to comfort in walking your streets without people peeing in public. You can’t own military grade artillery any…

It’s a layered problem:

If the economy is good, then yes.

If the circumstances are daring enough, then yes.

Otherwise no

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it's super late! In the short term, China will definitely be the largest economy (it's just about demographics + GDP). The only thing that could challenge that is: 1) World war (please no) 2) China is chopped up (but that's why they crack down on Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc) So I think we might see another rebranding about what it means to be the n1 economy. Or they might come up with a new metric hehe. The fact of th…

How about the top down governing approach that works in some situations and is a disaster in others? Currently favorable but times change. Second, we should not hope that an opponent does worse than us to make us look better but we should simply better ourselves in the first place. Currently I'm seeing only decline and disunity in the western civilization, very short term thinking and lack of vision, but I'm aware th…

I’m not hoping it goes bad for China. I’m just waiting for the CCP to turn against itself. It’s a matter of time. Too ignorant and unprepared.

The question is whether they will fall soon enough

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