TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround • Hacker News Board

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#121

Post by freeflight » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

crmd wrote: post #111

freeflight wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes - because manufacturing in the West is ultimately self-defeating. It's much more to do with the steadily increasing complexity of products due to humanity having become very much a global species with heavy interdependence. Look around the room you are sitting in: There will be items in it manufactured all over the world, from components also coming from all over the world. That's not only how we manage to make…

>> Yes - because manufacturing in the West is ultimately self-defeating. > The idea that a single country could emulate that, in complete isolation, is bluntly said childish. Who is this “single country” straw man you are referring to? The western world is comprised of 50+ nations with over $40 trillion in GDP.

And these 50+ nations have their very own industries that grew out of a demand for them to the scale of the demand for them with interdependence reaching all the way into Chinese tech manufacturing.

If you retool all of that to suddenly do something else, than you will be missing something else.

Because it's not like these 50+ nations with over $40 trillion in GDP are just sitting there and wondering what to do with all of that productivity, they are already plenty busy doing those things that got them all that GDP, the things they are good at.

That's why it's not really a "straw man", as the original argument implies globalized supply chains that emerged out of a given supply&demand could be artificially transplanted and rebuild in "the West", however that's even defined, to somehow reverse the reality of globalization.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#122

Post by CountSessine » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #113

CountSessine wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that employees expecting a livable wage is "parasitizing earnings" is a pretty outrageous claim. More defective programming in the wetware. Why is pay the only part of the equation? When Japan realized that their housing market was undermining living standards in the late 90’s, they cracked down on NIMBYism and took housing and land zoning authority away from cities. The housing market almost immediately corre…

We're not dropping prices in NA in good part because our governments are dysfunctional and don't want to intervene, and because large landowners see such interventions as contrary to their benefit. And besides, relaxing zoning is far from enough - you need to build vast and performant public transit systems, and in the case of Tokyo you need to make housing a depreciating asset. South Korea was not a democratic state…

We're not dropping prices in NA in good part because our governments are dysfunctional and don't want to intervene, and because large landowners see such interventions as contrary to their benefit. And besides, relaxing zoning is far from enough - you need to build vast and performant public transit systems, and in the case of Tokyo you need to make housing a depreciating asset.

Yes - and as I said, this is the defective programming in minds of Westerners. The government does what we tell them to do and most people want this. It's everywhere - it's the entitlement to a suburban home and the subordination of all other interests, even the concept of personal property, in service to this. The fact that the media doesn't discuss these things in spite of the fact that smart people like Warren and others write about it is evidence of the bad programming.

South Korea was not a democratic state during most of its crucial growth period either - it was only after a revolution in the 80s, and even then democracy is a very gracious word for a country that was literally ruled by a cult for half a decade.

Taiwan also was in quasi-dictatorial KMT rule for most of its rise, and Japan to this day on the national level is basically ruled by the LDP in perpetuity.

Is it your contention that these countries aren't democratic and prosperous today? Is that your claim? Is your claim that their citizens live in near slavery, as the previous poster's was?

But crucially, Japan, SK and Taiwan aren't where the kind of production China does happens. They are just as economically beholden to China as we are, sometimes moreso.

The company that I worked at previously had to assess manufacturing alternatives to China in the wake of Trump's tariffs. Most of the parts on the BOM could reasonably be sourced by other Asian countries like those three at a small premium. US manufacturers either weren't available or were completely priced out. If the West could even just get their manufacturing costs in parity with those three - TW, SK, and JP - that in itself would be huge progress.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#123

Post by majormajor » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

CountSessine wrote: post #107

elteto wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... start a union to parasitize earnings. Yes, those pesky employees should just STFU and be thankful for the scraps.

Again - the fact that you can’t see both sides of the equation is why we don’t make things anymore.

Terms like "parasitize earnings" don't sound like seeing both sides of the equation. Why's your anger and blame focused there for not seeing both sides?

The people who outsourced things weren't simply trying to reduce gains made by unions, they were looking at price differences that could not exist in the US due to cost and standard of living. They certainly weren't looking at both sides of this in terms of long term effect either!

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#124

Post by lilyball » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

anon9001 wrote: post #92

tinus_hn wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credential sharing only works between apps registered to the same developer. So no, this does not allow an tracking ID usable by all apps. And remember, any trick abused to create tracking IDs stands the risk of being detected and blocked by Apple in the next iOS update. It has been announced, it has happened, it will keep happening.

> Credential sharing only works between apps registered to the same developer. That's right, but it does allow persisting an id through reinstalls of the same app, and sharing that id between apps of the same developer. > So no, this does not allow an tracking ID usable by all apps. It effectively does though. For example, imagine a mobile game company with 10 games. With this technique, you can track that user acros…

Apple tried removing the keychain persisting in an iOS beta a while back and there was a big outcry from developers as it broke their ability to detect and ban users across app reinstalls. Apple reverted that and responded by adding a new feature where developers could permanently track 2 boolean values for a device (per app) but I don’t know who has bothered to switch to that mechanism.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#125

Post by aembleton » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #85

schiang wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't just provide supply chain anymore. They are also a huge market now because of its growing middle class. China has money to spend and US companies need to tap into that market.

Apple has a $2T market cap. Do they truly "need" China? I know, I know, they have a responsibility to their shareholders, blah blah. But Two Trillion Dollars.

They'll be worth a lot less than $2T if they exit from China.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#126

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #116

lotsofpulp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Insourcing is obviously out of the question; the wealthy Western establishment is violently intolerant of industrial expansion. As far as I can tell, it’s simply more expensive to insource, taking into account wages, labor regulations, and environmental regulations. If and when other countries catch up to the production costs in the US, then there won’t be a reason to ship things halfway around the world.

It's frequently not cheaper and occasionally more expensive. One reason it is popular is that it gives the managers who oversee it a lot more power and control: https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/05/more-on-the-myth-of-...

Managers can't force people to buy products based on how they like power and control. They either deliver an acceptable price to value ratio, or people buy something else.

I couldn't figure out what point the article you linked to was trying to make, but the fact that pretty much everything you buy is not stamped with "Made in USA" means that the cost to make it in the US was higher than elsewhere, and presumably people would choose to not buy it.

It wasn't because there was a manager's convention and they all agreed to send the work abroad so they could have more power and control. It's because if they didn't, their competitor would have, and Walmart would have chosen to put that cheaper product on their shelves rather than yours.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#127

Post by loveistheanswer » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

soheil wrote: post #78

This is a story because it's fashionable to hate on China. This has been going on in the US for years already. Using terms like CAID without an explanation to what it is makes the reader scared that China has somehow been able to infiltrate iOS to track users, this is bad journalism. CAID is a simple advertising id used across apps, there is no hacking of iOS or an incredible technical prowess on the the side of Chin…

>there is no hacking of iOS or an incredible technical prowess on the the side of China that we should all be afraid of, etc.

Claiming China (or the US, UK, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc.) does not have incredible technical prowess and hacking abilities is silly. Though if you're simply claiming this specific example is not evidence of that prowess, I'd agree. I also agree that US companies are doing very similar types of cyber stalking, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it when we find other countries such as China doing it

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#128

Post by WillPostForFood » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #100

reaperducer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has money to spend and US companies need to tap into that market. "Choose to" tap into that market. No company "needs" to be in China. Just like there are thousands of companies in Europe that do not do business in the United States, and thousands of companies in Brazil that do not do business in Russia.

You're getting kind of semantic. Theoretically, No company "needs" to be in business at all. If Chinese consumer market growth continues as it has been, it may the biggest market for Apple. Hard to be the largest luxury goods company in the world without the largest luxury goods market... OP is right. This gives China influence. Supply chain influence is a minor thing, relative to " I'm your biggest customer " influe…

It is a pretty powerful combo: controlling supply and demand.

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#129

Post by freebuju » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

hackererror404 wrote: post #41

The writing on the wall has been clear for years... China won't play nice. It's far past time Apple and every other serious tech player gets the heck out of China.

For Apple that would be akin to committing suicide

Re: TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-backed workaround

#130

Post by jimkleiber » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #100

reaperducer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has money to spend and US companies need to tap into that market. "Choose to" tap into that market. No company "needs" to be in China. Just like there are thousands of companies in Europe that do not do business in the United States, and thousands of companies in Brazil that do not do business in Russia.

You're getting kind of semantic. Theoretically, No company "needs" to be in business at all. If Chinese consumer market growth continues as it has been, it may the biggest market for Apple. Hard to be the largest luxury goods company in the world without the largest luxury goods market... OP is right. This gives China influence. Supply chain influence is a minor thing, relative to " I'm your biggest customer " influe…

Why I don't like the "needs to" framing, especially as it comes to business decisions, is that I think it takes the agency out of the process. Too many of my friends and family seem to assume that just because there are customers willing to pay or cheaper labor, a company must automatically do a certain thing unless the government makes a law to prevent them from doing it.

I guess that's why I like the "chooses to" framing because it highlights that leaders of companies can choose to not pursue markets or go with higher priced suppliers if they can make the argument as to how it might help them in the long term.

Edit: typo