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An Update to Our Community and an Apology

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Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#181

Post by tenpies »

djsumdog wrote: post #16

-542 before it was locked. That's incredible. People are really really afraid to talk about this particular topic (which they don't mention in the statement), because this type of call-out to be banned happens a lot. The book "The Coddling of the American Mind" is an amazing book that documents how this is happening in academia, and it's happening on the software world too. Most people in our industry, in the US, EU…

> I'd like to think the majority of people just want to live and be kind to each other

What you're getting to is the Golden rule in almost all human civilizations: treat others as you would like to be treated. The problem is when this rule broke down because the majority's "would like to be treated" became a hate crime to a small, but vociferous, radical contingent of the population.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#182

Post by effingwewt »

McGlockenshire wrote: post #127
effingwewt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some wor…

> How do fascists not realize they are being such? What an outrageous level of hyperbole. It is not fascism to ask others to not intentionally misgender people.

There's a world of difference between using gender neutral pronouns and purposely misgendering.

And even then, intent matters. Gender does not. I dont care who or what you consider yourself, I'm glad we as a society have choices. I want everyone to be themselves, again I've had friends and family memebers whose lives were ruined or made difficult for being gay.

But to tell me if I dont use whatever flavor of the week pronoun, I am harassing someone, and taking my right to speak for not conforming is facism.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#183

Post by SamReidHughes »

pariahHN wrote: post #89
xenocyon wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that most people don't agree with extreme positions is a bit of a tautology, since positions are defined as "extreme" if few people agree with them. There is therefore nothing universal or fundamentally meaningful about this label, and the same position (e.g. support of interracial marriage) may be considered a perfectly normal or a radically extremist position depending on the time and place.

Eh, in some instances you can define extremeness relative to alternatives, not number of believers. Execution as a punishment is more extreme than a fine regardless of how many people favor execution over fines. I would argue that generally a position being extreme results in fewer believers, not that fewer believers results in a position being extreme.

Execution is a good example — there are far more extreme punishments: torture in various forms, punishment of relatives, etc.

A fine is an extreme punishment for crimes like rape, while execution is not. (See the reaction to the Brock Turner sentencing.)

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#184

Post by [deleted] »

McGlockenshire wrote: post #127
effingwewt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some wor…

> How do fascists not realize they are being such? What an outrageous level of hyperbole. It is not fascism to ask others to not intentionally misgender people.

[deleted]

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#185

Post by swebs »

kupiakos wrote: post #121
thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

I disagree. This is an actual in-your-face challenge that trans people face - incorrect pronoun usage, both offline and online. Using the wrong pronoun for someone is akin to using the wrong name. It's ok if it happens accidentally, but being incorrect on purpose is quite insulting - in part because it's so simple to do the right thing. I don't want to work with jerks. It matters because even if you don't think it's…

>Use gender-neutral language by default. It's not hard, and simple mistakes are forgiven.

Not if you're a Stack Overflow moderator apparently.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#186

Post by yourbandsucks »

dragonwriter wrote: post #169
yourbandsucks wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.

> Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Because aggressive misgendering including by refusal to use the subject’s preferred pronouns is currently a significant form of harassment which is actively promoted by certain groups. > Just be nice to people. The fact that people aggressively refuse to do that is exactly what pronoun policies are responding to.

I'm gonna wade in hip-deep here and suggest that, given the size of the transgender community, the heat and hype of these issues are completely unwarranted.

No hate towards anyone and I'll call anyone whatever they want as far as pronouns.

But why is this a top-3 culture war issue? For a bunch of combatants who are overwhelmingly not trans and shouldn't really care?

We need to think of a way to rise above without throwing anyone under the bus. It'd be better for both the trans community and society at large.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#187

Post by AgentME »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #167
MauranKilom wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm under the impression that you misunderstand the CoC update procedure. It has not been updated . SE is hellbent on updating it in the future, and they explicitly stated that they are not willing to budge an inch on its gender-/pronoun-related contents. This is not accidental, there is not one single dissident behind it but the entire company. It will be the duty of the moderators to enforce the new CoC. The discus…

Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.

A big part of a CoC is making sure everyone is on the same page about what being nice to people is, and presumably "don't willingly misgender people" may be part of that.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#188

Post by throwaway314pi »

shadowgovt wrote: post #144
fencepost wrote: post #128

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity. I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a differ…

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

I’ve never met someone who uses a pronoun other than he, she, or they. Does that mean all other pronouns are “derivation-free nonsense”?

My preferred pronoun is blergl.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#189

Post by AgentME »

thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

>If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to do so on SO or even in person.

I think it's perfectly reasonable and expected for SO to insist that their moderators don't be dicks.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#190

Post by tmp20191006cars »

I've never seen a code of conduct that makes calling someone by the wrong first name a bannable offense. So why is it so with pronouns? IMHO it's because this issue is politically unsettled -- it is not universally resolved across society. A fair percentage of people do not accept the concept of transgenderism, and instead see a transgender woman as a mentally ill man (and vice versa).

While this issue is politically unsettled, it cannot be correct to enforce one side's view by banning people on the other side of the argument if they don't tacitly concede the argument via enforced pronoun usage.

[Personally I hold no strong opinions about transgenderism, I just hate to see society splitting apart.]

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