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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#171

Post by 10000truths »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #141
nimbius wrote: post #131

disingenuous headline. America desperately needs to reform ATC hiring. This is the same headline as the professional trucking shortage in the USA and glosses over the real reasons no one will take these jobs. mandatory overtime, low wages, miserable benefits, high stress and a well documented history of retaliation against organized labor.

Certain immigrants actually seem to excel in trucking and even enjoy it (Punjabi truckers especially in California - I always see the Sikh logos on the back of their trucks between LA and SF!). A quick policy adjust would resolve any shortage in truckers with other people who'd probably also enjoy the work. However, there isn't a massive pool of people abroad who can handle US airspace demands (which now seems to inc…

> and also includes people like my former college hallmates who take handheld aviation radios, ask for permission to depart, and run on the taxiways with their arms extended, to great dismay of ATC

You can't just drop a tidbit like that without elaborating.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#172

Post by avn2109 »

ryandrake wrote: post #128
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool of candidates willing to do this kind of work. These people are already very well compensated, and at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools. It wouldn't happen overnight, but surely if ATC had a similar compensation reputat…

The million dollar salary thing is compelling. I would certainly switch careers from ML engineering for a million bucks of cash comp, especially in a low CoL location :) Also, the "30 years old" thing mentioned in the GP seems excessive, surely if they were really desperate to staff up, they could loosen that age limit.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#173

Post by ianburrell »

Octoth0rpe wrote: post #139
randerson wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ATCs have the upper hand in this negotiation because they're essential and can't be quickly replaced. If enough ATCs quit that major airports have to be shut down or reduce flights, the airlines (and stock market) will turn against Trump pretty quickly. My guess is the going salary for ATCs is going to increase substantially once they realize they need to lure back those who quit. I would love to see all ATCs in DC q…

> Wouldn't it be great if Air Force One was stranded because of this. I was under the impression that AF1 flew in/out of Andrews air force base, which I (possibly naively?) assumed did not use civilian ATC. But yes, that would be great :)

The US air space is civilian ATC. Air Force One couldn't go anywhere if the area control and destination airport were down.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#174

Post by Grevling »

trunnell wrote: post #20

To those who know more about ATC: is there any hope of automation?

I was in ATC training in the 90s and this was discussed among teachers and ATC personell. The common saying was that pilots would disappear from cockpits before ATC personell were removed, at least from tower control. There are typically three kinds of ATC: Tower control, approach/departure control and area control for controlling planes when cruising. I haven't followed this in years but my impression is that better monitoring equipment allows for fewer area controllers to control bigger areas. I believe area control is the most likely to get automated but this is quite a guess. Approach control is about using radar (or no radar, procedural approach control is a thing) lining up planes to land on a runway. The planes are handed over from approach to tower control when the plane is on final approach. There is also ground control for taxiing on larger airports. But, not least. Do not underestimate the value of having trained personell using radio to great effect. Any belief that modern touch gadgets are better than radio is silly. Humans are also very capable at speaking while performing advanced tasks.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#176

Post by bilbo0s »

bombcar wrote: post #113
deathanatos wrote: post #81

"US ATC System Under Scrutiny" "Fatal crash brings attention to shortage" "There are simply not enough air traffic controllers to keep aircraft a safe distance from one another." Like, perhaps there is merit in arguing for more controllers or more pay for controllers, and perhaps that would lead to a safer airspace, but the attempts to implicitly tie the fatal crash to ATC in this case seems pretty poor form, here. W…

I’ll bet the final NTSB report lists as a contributing factor that there was only one controller that night; a second controller might have had the time to notice the altitude was too close, or vector the helicopter behind.

No. There are also rules on who can do what.

Put another way, military aircraft, especially certain military aircraft, can do things that civilian aircraft can't.

If I were piloting a helicopter in that airspace, that ATC transcript would have been significantly different.

We should be looking at root causes. Which means we should ask the uncomfortable questions about the deference given to some military/government aircraft. But we don't want to ask those questions. So we keep quibbling around the edges by talking about ATC or Reagan firing everyone or even the ridiculous suggestion that maybe the civilian airliners could be in a hold pattern at certain times.

It would be humorous if it wasn't so tragic.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#177

Post by mullingitover »

bilbo0s wrote: post #151
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official investigation report is of course going to take a bit, but the ATC audio is public, and the helicopter was warned twice about the plane, and said they had a visual of the plane. Besides never missing an opportunity to 'slam' the opposition, I have no idea why this is being construed as an ATC failure.

Well, I mean, if we can blame DEI? That's part of the problem here, everyone is just taking political potshots. Which is to be expected. But the danger is you lose sight of the real issue. As you mentioned, the helo pilot's loss of situational awareness. (Did they ever even have situational awareness?) We can't be getting into these situations where every crisis is met by this typical American emotional reactionism.…

I think the underlying problem was the irresponsible amount of air traffic that has been allowed in that space. It sounds like the pilot made a mistake any pilot might've made and truly it was just a matter of time until something like this happened given the overcrowded nature of the air traffic in the area.

Operator error is only the first 'why' in the 5 whys for this incident.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#178

Post by dickfickling »

ryandrake wrote: post #142
bobthepanda wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are already a lot of screens and things to look at in a cockpit. and in emergency situations, screens can fail. audio has the advantage of being highly backwards compatible and extremely reliable, so long as the pilots are alive and conscious (and if they're not, the plane is most likely SOL anyways: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 )

Also, you can process and respond to audio without taking your eyes off of whatever they are on, and without taking your hand off the stick/yoke. I hear in my headset "Clear for the option runway two-five-right, number two behind a cessna, two mile final, on the go make right traffic" and I know exactly what is expected of me without having to look at a screen. A digital display would be a step backwards.

It doesn't sound like GP is saying we have to do away with audio, just that it's absurd to stick to _just_ audio. Great to have a screen that shows "Clear for option 25R etc etc". I think I saw the latest Cirrus planes have something like that, doing live transcription of tower/ATC calls.

EDIT: I will add I get that adding something like that to a general aviation cockpit is much easier than putting it on a commercial 787, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#179

Post by germinalphrase »

lesuorac wrote: post #105
runako wrote: post #4

Seems like a colossal error to have asked them all to quit. I wonder -- if half of the air traffic controllers took the offer to leave their jobs, do we have a Plan B? The deadline they have been given to decide is Thursday; I have not seen any communication as to whether ATC (and TSA, etc.) will be operational Friday.

It's a colossal error to accept. The government isn't authorized to do a buy-out by congress so you're just quitting and won't receive the payment.

It never was a buy out, and everyone should stop referring to it as such.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#180

Post by pbalau »

ryandrake wrote: post #128
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool of candidates willing to do this kind of work. These people are already very well compensated, and at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools. It wouldn't happen overnight, but surely if ATC had a similar compensation reputat…

I think this is a naive way of looking at the problem. People that start working in banks, generally do that as a starting point. ATC is the end of the road for that career.

Working in a bank is the start of a quite lucrative career, working as an ATC is the end.

Indeed, we can offer more money to ATC, but there is not a lot, progression wise.

Honestly, how would a junior ATC look like, compared with a senior?

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