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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#81
"US ATC System Under Scrutiny" "Fatal crash brings attention to shortage" "There are simply not enough air traffic controllers to keep aircraft a safe distance from one another."

Like, perhaps there is merit in arguing for more controllers or more pay for controllers, and perhaps that would lead to a safer airspace, but the attempts to implicitly tie the fatal crash to ATC in this case seems pretty poor form, here. What we know from the ATC transcripts[1] already tells us that ATC was aware the helicopter & the plane would be near each other well in advance of the crash; ATC informed the helo, the helo responded that he had the aircraft in sight. Time passed, the ATC gets a proximity warning (labelled as "[Conflict Alert Warning]" in VASAviation's video), ATC immediately acts on it, again reaching out to the helo, the helo again confirms they have the aircraft in sight, and moments later we can hear on the ATC transcripts the crash occur as people in the room witness it and react in horror.

To my armchair commenting self, the ATC controllers seem to be exonerated by the transcript, and I'm going to otherwise wait until an NTSB report tells me why I'm wrong to break out the pitch forks on them.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gD_lnBNu0

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#82
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cut the hours back to something sane, and as much as possible time the airport closures in ways that affect the ruling class The ruling class flies private aircraft and don't have to operate out of large municipal airports.

They're not going to want to fly to a tiny airport in the middle of nowhere and then have to drive into the city. That defeats the whole point

A friend of mine is a pilot for these types of folks (founders of non-tech household names), unless they're going to an event (say the Super Bowl), they fly into smaller airports.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#83
post #75

There's a lawsuit going on: >FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes https://nypost.com/2025/01/31/us-news/faa-embroiled-in-lawsu... The guy behind it is quite interesting. Got 100% on his exams but told they were only hiring 'diverse' folk https://archive.ph/ixmFB

> When Mr Brigida tried again to become an air traffic controller under the new tests, he said he failed the biographical questionnaire because he “didn’t fit the preferred ethnic profile”. This dude leading the lawsuit is incredibly unreliable. The ATC biographical assessment didn't have any race-based questions - it was just a decision making questionnaire: https://123atc.com/biographical-assessment It was a questi…

I don't know anything about the lawsuit, but I do know that someone leaked the "answers" to members of a group representing people of a specific race.

(Opinions are my own and not necessarily that of the FAA.)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#84
post #4

Seems like a colossal error to have asked them all to quit. I wonder -- if half of the air traffic controllers took the offer to leave their jobs, do we have a Plan B? The deadline they have been given to decide is Thursday; I have not seen any communication as to whether ATC (and TSA, etc.) will be operational Friday.

I thought the buyout offer went along with the cancellation of remote work. Like, if you are thinking about quitting because you don’t want to come in, here have an extra incentive to do that and take some time to find another job. ATC already couldn’t work remotely. The only people who would take a deal like this would be people who were thinking about quitting or retiring anyway. I suspect ATC will not be substanti…

The other set of people who might take the deal are people who are concerned that the new administration will consider them "DEI hires"[1] and fire them later in the year. This is not an unreasonable fear given that the administration has already blamed the DC crash on "DEI" and pledged to root out "DEI" everywhere.

If you expect to be fired ~ in the fall, it is not unreasonable to be interested in the offer to keep getting paid from your federal job while you look for alternate employment.

1 - I am not going to get into who fits this category. The point is which employees might think they fit into this category.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#85
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be unclear, I didn’t mean that only people transitioning from remote to in person can take the buyout. I meant that that is what the deal seemed to be targeting based on the timing, like a release valve for people who would be angry about switching back to in person.

> I meant that that is what the deal seemed to be targeting based on the timing, like a release valve for people who would be angry about switching back to in person. That’s a reasonable take. I don’t think anyone involved is actually on the same page about targeting or intent. It’s a complete shit show. I have many fed gov friends, and I’m getting some incredible insider takes. Interestingly, I think that the idea o…

> but this implementation has been haphazard (at best).

Also, this doesn't save us any money at all. Congress allocates money and in many cases specifies employment levels. But like the OMB memo says -- taxpayers still have to spend the money for these employees whether they do any work or not.

The reason they are doing this haphazard mess is that their positions are not popular and therefore cannot pass in Congress.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#86
post #60
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are your dates from? According to the Wikipedia page, there have been multiple fatal plane crashes in the US since 2009, including a midair collision in 2019 (although not an airliner). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_accidents_and_...

The parent commenter misspoke; they meant there was not a fatal accident involving a commercial airliner from 2009 to 2025. Commercial aviation is much more highly regulated, and much safer, than general aviation.

Nope, sorry, that page describes multiple commercial accidents resulting in fatalities, since 2009.

The Asiana crash at SFO had multiple fatalities, and was in 2013.

From the Wikipedia page:

“This is a list of fatal commercial aviation accidents and incidents in or in the vicinity of the United States or its territories. It comprises a subset of both the list of accidents and incidents involving airliners in the United States and the list of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft. It does not include fatalities due to accidents and incidents solely involving private aircraft or military aircraft.”

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reagan taking away collective bargaining rights for ATCs seems to be what have led to the shortage and the helicopter accident last week.

Kinda. Collective bargaining rights are great for employees but they do not automatically lead to better outcomes for customers/citizens/etc. A good counter-example of ATC would be police. Police have strong collective bargaining rights, but mostly came at the expense of accountability and citizen oversight. (And also police departments are still chronically understaffed).

Police are the state's manifestation of the monopoly on violence. Comparing that to civilian safety orgs makes no sense.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#88
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First result in google for "air traffic controller training" https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications Edit: I didn't take a stance on this topic, if you think I did, you are incorrect. I was simply linking the website that outlines the requirements instead of postulating as to what they were.

[flagged]

What are you on about? I was trying to aid the discussion of "requirements to be an ATC" and you're pissed I don't give a fuck about what those requirements are? Don't have strong opinions on them? What the fuck?

I don't give a fuck, and have ZERO opinions on them.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#89
post #85
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I meant that that is what the deal seemed to be targeting based on the timing, like a release valve for people who would be angry about switching back to in person. That’s a reasonable take. I don’t think anyone involved is actually on the same page about targeting or intent. It’s a complete shit show. I have many fed gov friends, and I’m getting some incredible insider takes. Interestingly, I think that the idea o…

> but this implementation has been haphazard (at best). Also, this doesn't save us any money at all. Congress allocates money and in many cases specifies employment levels. But like the OMB memo says -- taxpayers still have to spend the money for these employees whether they do any work or not. The reason they are doing this haphazard mess is that their positions are not popular and therefore cannot pass in Congress.

> Also, this doesn't save us any money at all. Congress allocates money and in many cases specifies employment levels.

Hmmm… this is short-term correct (at a minimum), but may not be correct long term. Time will tell.

Yes, the money for current jobs has been allocated/budgeted for the fiscal year, and the folks who resign will actually be paid for not working until the end of the fiscal year.

This is standard buyout stuff, and the government does this every year on a smaller scale, usually targeting high-paid, low productivity employees who are eligible to retire.

That said, what happens next fiscal year? The speculation is that the default will be that the positions vacated will basically be lost — as in, the slot/allocation will no longer exist and will not get funded. I imagine exceptions will exist, but this will create a noticeable reduction in the federal workforce if it ends up this way.

Said another way, paying 8 months for no work is cheaper than paying for 5-10 years of unneeded/inefficient work (at least that’s the theory).

> The reason they are doing this haphazard mess is that their positions are not popular and therefore cannot pass in Congress.

As I mentioned above, I think there is broad support on both sides for cutting and/or right-sizing the federal workforce.

Anyone who has worked in or with the federal government knows about instances of gratuitous headcount growth and substantial underemployment in some areas. There exist grifters who maybe put in 10 hours a week on average of very mediocre work for a salary that they absolutely could not earn outside of the government.

These same people also know about areas of the government that are grossly understaffed, seemingly in perpetuity (ATCs, contracting, etc.) and/or extremely underpaid (e.g., anything in tech).

I think it would be trivially easy to get broad support in Congress to implement changes that fix these problems, but that fix doesn’t start with a hastily written “fork you” all-hands e-mail.

All that said, all of this gratuitous motion is basically a drop in the bucket compared to modest and reasonable changes that could be made in social security, Medicare/medicaid, and/or defense spending.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#90
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda. Collective bargaining rights are great for employees but they do not automatically lead to better outcomes for customers/citizens/etc. A good counter-example of ATC would be police. Police have strong collective bargaining rights, but mostly came at the expense of accountability and citizen oversight. (And also police departments are still chronically understaffed).

Police are the state's manifestation of the monopoly on violence. Comparing that to civilian safety orgs makes no sense.

Okay, if not police, then teacher's unions: there's not a lot of available studies, but most point to a non-existent or negative relationship between CBAs and student performance.

Or in the private sectors, non-unionized manufacturers like Toyota and Honda always outperform legacy manufacturers in the US on quality.

I'm not saying there's not a strong argument for unionization, but an improvement in quality is not one backed by any sort of evidence and it's a really weak argument. To put it another way, it would be hard for a unionized employee to outperform a Foxconn employee with no human rights on output quality - but it's not at all the kind of argument we should be making.

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