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KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

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Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#171

Post by [deleted] »

brnt wrote: post #165
duckmysick wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but happens to me too. Steps to replicate: put your laptop to sleep (suspend) and try to wake it up (resume). You end up with a black screen. Often times, you can SSH into your laptop, but the screen remains unresponsive. Only hard reset helps. There are many reports of such bug. It's common on Wayland, but happens on X11 to some folks. The only constant is it happens on devices with Nvidia cards. I tried…

I didn't even have to do anything. Just boot after a fresh install and wait a minute or two. Three generation of all Intel laptops. I uploaded some logs, but people were utterly uninterested or hostile.

[deleted]

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#172

Post by tadfisher »

bayindirh wrote: post #158
mardifoufs wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia, even on Wayland since the latest 545 driver, works just fine if you use the proprietary drivers.

If your card is supported by the latest proprietary driver, of course. Also, NVIDIA nukes the open drivers by providing a crippled firmware for them, but this is another story.

They're pushing the full-fat GSP firmware (all 60-odd megabytes of it) to linux-firmware soon, and allowing nouveau to call into it for reclocking support, so hopefully things will be less terrible for 20xx users and up.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#173

Post by vlovich123 »

mardifoufs wrote: post #167
kabes wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issues started since driver 545

Are you using Wayland? I'm curious since it seems like most people I've discussed with have confirmed that the 545 drivers improved things for them. I thought they might actually have fixed/improved the experience for most Wayland users but I guess things are never that simple!

I have heard these reports too but I haven’t noticed any differences in behavior by driver version. All the bugs I mention are the same ones before and after the latest beta that everyone said improved things. I imagine they fixed some particularly visible problem although I haven’t seen it. Maybe most people are on laptops and their laptop chip got some fix for an issue impacting those users? Not sure but that’s one obvious difference that might separate me. The other is that my CPU is the 13900k without an Intel GPU and I imagine most people opt for iGPU integrated (I didn’t see the point of it when running a desktop and I had enough of bad experience with Intel+Nvidia on the laptop side of things for the past 2 years with that configuration that I decided my sanity was better this way).

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#174

Post by vlovich123 »

sidkshatriya wrote: post #133
vlovich123 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Till today I have found X11 configuration one of the toughest things in Linux. I'd rather google for some wayland specific flags than worry about X11. My experience here is that this used to be true more than ten years ago. At some point in between that though X11 managed to get to 0 config. At least, I installed Arch & didn't have to touch the X config at all and things just worked (on NVidia at least). I'm not tr…

> Nvidia is stepping up on their side though - I don't see the same from Wayland/XWayland camp Genuinely curious -- what stepping up should happen from Wayland/XWayland ? Intel and AMD seem to work well on it so is it because they have some accepted some ugly hacks that Nvidia are not willing to do ? Something else ?

In terms of stepping up, they seem to be tackling through Wayland issues. The latest 545 seems to have people on forums saying “this fixed so many Wayland issues for me”. Now either they are paying professional astrosurfers, or they legitimately fixed some classes of bugs (or it’s random). My experience though is that this kind of feedback tends to be genuine. So I’m giving kudos where it’s due and it seems like the Nvidia team is starting to focus on Wayland issues. Similarly, I was observing recent bug tracker activity on Chrome and Nvidia and all that seemed to be tracking bugs on their end (which not surprising - Nvidia and Google have strong relationships between Android, Chrome, and formerly Stadia).

I don’t know the details on the Xwayland BS (which is the main visible issue I’m seeing as unhealthy). I have not done the technical research to fully understand whose position is actually justified. Heck it might be that both sides are correct on the facts (it doesn’t make sense to add the support that makes other GPUs work and it doesn’t make sense yet to add the new way for Nvidia) but the net outcome is that Xwayland on Nvidia’s propietary drivers remains broken for the foreseeable future. Both Intel and AMD both support something called implicit synchronization. But apparently explicit synchronization is “the future” because it enables more performance and Nvidia has clearly communicated they’re not going to support implicit. Xwayland only supports implicit synchronization and refuses to add explicit synchronization (I think strong arming their position is that the explicit synchronization protocol is isn’t ready or not popular enough yet in the ecosystem? I’m not sure). Nvidia has contributed some patch to fix Xwayland to use explicit synchronization when running on the propietary driver (or something like that).

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#175

Post by wkat4242 »

sidkshatriya wrote: post #109
vlovich123 wrote: post #90

I enabled wayland recently and there’s been a lot of annoyances to the point that I wonder why I bother considering X11 works without these issues. For example: * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Firefox needs extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Xwayland is just broken on Nvidia with both sides refusing to compromise (implicit vs explicit synchronization - Nvidia refuses to add impl…

It's possible some of these things are really distro+hw related, but for the sake of argument: > * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode I'd rather have to worry about adding a few extra flags than worry about X11. X11 is overcomplicated, over-engineered, barely maintained, is apparently broken from a security angle, ancient... Till today I have found X11 configuration one of the toughest thin…

Of course X11 is badly maintained. Because RedHat took over the maintenance and they want to push Wayland. They took it over to kill it.

X11 is not ideal but I don't think it'll really die. The big benefit of UNIX/Linux is choice. Including for a graphics stack.

I'd use Wayland if it worked with KDE on FreeBSD but it doesn't yet. But I'm not in a hurry anyway.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#176

Post by wkat4242 »

mvelbaum wrote: post #4

KDE is pretty feature-rich, but it is just ugly. Look at the poor use of spacing/margins, the ugly black & white icons, the ugly font, the square edges, and just the overall look & feel. It needs a major face-lift. I dislike the attempts to dumb down GNOME but KDE being ugly makes it really hard to switch to.

I love KDE. Also everything is themeable and configurable so if you don't like how it looks, just take a theme you do like.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#177

Post by vlovich123 »

chlorion wrote: post #155
brnt wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have three laptops each with Intel graphics, each from a different generation. They all have the same show stopping (as in screen locking gotta reset) bugs after a fresh distro install, no adjustments. But ofcourse, Wayland isn't the problem...

Wayland has been flawless for me, but for others not so much. Every thread about wayland has people claiming it's broken yet they aren't reporting bugs or providing useful information at all, just vague complaints. Many people experience no issues with wayland, and some people do experience issues, but without any information nothing can be done to even attempt to fix things. It's possible in many cases that somethin…

Basically your complaint is “Linux users aren’t spending hours to reproduce every single issue and keep following up with additional debug info from every developer new to the conversation”. What if instead the model was done survey who has issues and pick 1 random person who’s reporting issues and build up a knowledge base of the ways it’s failing (ie formally “here’s the symptoms, here’s the root cause and here’s the fix” whether that fix is something the user has to do on their end or a new SW version. I think if you did that enough times, you’d be randomly sampling the highest effect bug rates. It’s not the cheapest way to do this but if you’re having so many foundational issues with something as it’s looking like Nvidia is with Wayland (especially given how old Wayland is), that’s what I’d be telling the Linux driver team at Nvidia to own end to end until we believed all the largest Nvidia issues were resolved (whether or not it’s a driver problem) and then go back to normal triage processes. This stuff is normal shit that happens at high performing teams when things are this bad (eg an entire component critical to Wayland working on a Linux desktop isn’t working if you’re an Nvidia customer).

Asking users to contribute to fixing their own issues is the quickest way to make sure nothing ever gets done. I’m an extremely technical user but im using Linux for my day to day engineering needs. I have other SW that needs my attention and debugging my personal desktop issues is not what I’d like to be doing. If it gets bad enough I’ll reinstall the OS from scratch or switch back to Mac and figure out how I can make Linux work in a VM so I can test the software I need. But right now the SW I’m working on is Linux-only and if I can solve and figure out a workaround for the problem by myself without having to pause and follow up about some bug is not where I want to spend my energy. I have enough trouble keeping track of conversations on GitHub. I just hope any bugs I can’t figure out myself will eventually get solved without me having to do anything. And I do follow up some times but the value of that has been hit and miss enough that I do it as rarely as possible.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#178

Post by Dalewyn »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #125
Dalewyn wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sure why this is. It's because Windows. DX9 remained on the frontline for as long as it did because Windows XP was supported from 2001 all the way to 2014 due to usage share. Similarly, DX11 remains on the frontline because Windows 7. I guess it's more apt to say they are because Windows Vista and Windows 8(.1) failed spectacularly respectively, but my point remains. Since Windows 7 and 8(.1) are both EOL no…

Wasn't DX12 backported to Windows 7?

Only a small subset of Direct3D 12 and only if the game dev incorporated it.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#179

Post by ta988 »

bogwog wrote: post #54
ta988 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a Nvidia? They are notoriously buggy.

I've been using Wayland + KDE (currently Plasma 5.27.8) for a very long time now on my machine with an Nvidia GPU (first a 1080TI, then a 4090). There are annoying bugs, but they're not show stoppers. I'm not someone who whines about problems like these, especially because I'm at the forefront of the Linux desktop, on a known-bad combination, so there are bound to be bugs :P For example, a persistent bug that hasn't…

All of that work for me on AMDGPU, so likely not a KDE bug. Same here I have been using wayland with sway and KDE depending on the machines (some with intel gpu, but no nvidia) for a few years now and nothing to complain about (fedora, arch and ubuntu)

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#180

Post by walteweiss »

wpm wrote: post #51
walteweiss wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s a desktop environment not a prom dress, I don’t really care about aesthetics.

If you came up with clothes to compare, it fits well this comparison. You can wear shitty clothes, look bad, but if you’re comfortable, then it’s ok for you. But you tell others you look great, and truly believe you look great. And want others to look like you. That’s the problem. Keep that to yourself if you aren’t about to learn at least some basics.
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