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KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

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Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#121

Post by brnt »

vlovich123 wrote: post #90

I enabled wayland recently and there’s been a lot of annoyances to the point that I wonder why I bother considering X11 works without these issues. For example: * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Firefox needs extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Xwayland is just broken on Nvidia with both sides refusing to compromise (implicit vs explicit synchronization - Nvidia refuses to add impl…

I have three laptops each with Intel graphics, each from a different generation. They all have the same show stopping (as in screen locking gotta reset) bugs after a fresh distro install, no adjustments.

But ofcourse, Wayland isn't the problem...

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#122

Post by skinkestek »

brabel wrote: post #84
brnt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent spacing: no useless wide margins. Stylish icons that can blend in with various themes, which are clear and easily distinguishable. Font: most distro's actually default to Noto, not KDEs own. But you know what: this you can change, KDE didn't remove any and all options for customisation after all. You can pry Plasma out my cold, dead hands. Gnome, Macos, and Windows: now that's amateur hour.

I use KDE and MacOS on different laptops. Even though I like KDE , I find that compared to MacOS, KDE is the one that comes out a bit amateurish... the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing. Am I missing something?? How is KDE better (it really feels much more raw to me, but being on Linux I don't really expect much more)?

> the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing.

Please feel free to answer these questions (I think I already know the answer so this is to illustrate a point, but I will also be happy to learn a better way):

1. How do you cut and paste something on a Mac using the keyboard?

2. How do you cut a file in one folder and paste it into another in Finder using the keyboard?

3. How are you supposed to know the answer to 2. except by learning it by discussing with Mac users?

4. I haven't tested recently but it used to be that there was no single consistent way to get to the start or end of a line while selecting the text in between. CMD-shift-arrow left/right worked most places, but not everywhere. Ctrl + a/e always worked but couldn't be used to select text, only to move the cursor.

PS: I already asked for a Mac as my next machine at work. But as someone who uses and have used almost all major desktops (Gnome 2, KDE 3, 4 and 5, Windows 95 - 10, several iterations of Mac OS X) for significant time, I do feel the "attention to detail" argument for Mac is a bit overblown.

PPS: I planning to get a Mac because it has good hardware, is silent, fast and because I want to try it again after a few years. Also I have migrates my whole family to Apple phones since last I used Mac at work.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#123

Post by vlovich123 »

sidkshatriya wrote: post #109
vlovich123 wrote: post #90

I enabled wayland recently and there’s been a lot of annoyances to the point that I wonder why I bother considering X11 works without these issues. For example: * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Firefox needs extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Xwayland is just broken on Nvidia with both sides refusing to compromise (implicit vs explicit synchronization - Nvidia refuses to add impl…

It's possible some of these things are really distro+hw related, but for the sake of argument: > * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode I'd rather have to worry about adding a few extra flags than worry about X11. X11 is overcomplicated, over-engineered, barely maintained, is apparently broken from a security angle, ancient... Till today I have found X11 configuration one of the toughest thin…

> Till today I have found X11 configuration one of the toughest things in Linux. I'd rather google for some wayland specific flags than worry about X11.

My experience here is that this used to be true more than ten years ago. At some point in between that though X11 managed to get to 0 config. At least, I installed Arch & didn't have to touch the X config at all and things just worked (on NVidia at least).

I'm not trying to say needing flags is something bad. That stuff will get ironed out for sure. But if you want to avoid Xwayland, you need flags (& it's not just Chrome & Firefox - Electron needs similar things) AND Xwayland on Nvidia is a mess right now with no end in sight.

> Xwayland is a transitional thing anyways too. When X is dead we won't need to worry about Xwayland either.

Some apps don't even support Wayland and likely won't for a long time and I think you're underestimating how long XWayland will be a thing (e.g. Tcl/TK which is powers a surprising number of developer tooling UIs doesn't have Wayland & doesn't seem to have enough interest to really push this to production though previous ports have been attempted & made progress). FWIW, this argument has been made since Wayland started 15 years ago. I won't even have the same machine in 5 years.

> X11 is overcomplicated, over-engineered, barely maintained, is apparently broken from a security angle, ancient...

It's funny the kind of arguments that get made because you think I'm against your position. I agree with you and think Wayland should replace X11. But there are very real problems with it today & there's a reason anyone with an NVidia GPU goes "uggh. Wayland". The problem is not just on Nvidia's end and I see cultural problems from Wayland's side too (likely because they've faced so much drive by attacks). I feel like Nvidia is stepping up on their side though - I don't see the same from Wayland/XWayland camp.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#124

Post by LAC-Tech »

I really like KDE. I feel like it's what the windows DE wants to be when it grows up. Everything is configurable and it's usually fairly obvious how to do so.

Coming from a long time 'minimalist' linux users, my biggest issue with it is that there's no ~/.config/kde that you can just copy between machines and get set up the way you like it. It's spread out all over the show.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#125

Post by Wowfunhappy »

Dalewyn wrote: post #119
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't wholly disagree with your conclusion, but it's worth considering some context. Direct3D versions 1 – 9 were indeed released at a rapid pace, more than one per year on average. However, it took a whole five years before D3D9 was superseded by D3D10, and subsequent releases have also been relatively slow. Direct3D 12 is eight years old, even older than Vulkan. However, it still feels to me like a "new" API, I t…

>I'm not sure why this is. It's because Windows. DX9 remained on the frontline for as long as it did because Windows XP was supported from 2001 all the way to 2014 due to usage share. Similarly, DX11 remains on the frontline because Windows 7. I guess it's more apt to say they are because Windows Vista and Windows 8(.1) failed spectacularly respectively, but my point remains. Since Windows 7 and 8(.1) are both EOL no…

Wasn't DX12 backported to Windows 7?

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#126

Post by kuschku »

sph wrote: post #17
mvelbaum wrote: post #4

KDE is pretty feature-rich, but it is just ugly. Look at the poor use of spacing/margins, the ugly black & white icons, the ugly font, the square edges, and just the overall look & feel. It needs a major face-lift. I dislike the attempts to dumb down GNOME but KDE being ugly makes it really hard to switch to.

I'm gonna be very controversial here, but the problem is that the vast majority of Linux users are blind to aesthetics and design. Perhaps the vast majority of people are. Mind you, being blind to something does not mean it does not exist. Just look at the desktop wallpaper or any font choice of the average person. It's no wonder Comic Sans and Papyrus are the most common fonts in the world, even for formal business…

I absolutely agree with everything you said.

Sadly, that's going to fall on deaf ears, as most people still can't tell aesthetics and design apart.

KDE has all the features and all the buttons. It's what I'd expect a prototype to be like.

Gnome simply reaches good design by just omitting everything that'd be hard to design. One way to do it, but obviously missing a lot of functionality.

Truly good design is making all the bells and whistles feel intuitive. Good design isn't about looks, it's about information hierarchy and structure.

Which is why I love the Windows 9x design so much.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#127

Post by sintax »

gbtw wrote: post #45

Any recommendations for KM software that works with wayland (like barrier / synergy)? Thats been holding me back so far.

There's a new fork of barrier called input leap (not to be confused with the leap motion), https://github.com/input-leap/input-leap with work on getting Wayland support in shape. Not sure how far the support is atm, but the gnome 45 release notes mentioned "Wayland support for Input Leap" (https://release.gnome.org/45/)

Wayland tracker issue, https://github.com/input-leap/input-leap/issues/109

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#128

Post by beebeepka »

vlovich123 wrote: post #90

I enabled wayland recently and there’s been a lot of annoyances to the point that I wonder why I bother considering X11 works without these issues. For example: * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Firefox needs extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Xwayland is just broken on Nvidia with both sides refusing to compromise (implicit vs explicit synchronization - Nvidia refuses to add impl…

Wow, is this what the Nvidia Linux experience is like these days? Is it even worth it anymore?

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#129

Post by sublinear »

jdiff wrote: post #55
sublinear wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the vast majority of Linux users are blind to aesthetics and design Yes, my god is KDE ugly, but just because they don't prioritize aesthetics doesn't mean they don't know better. Linux users (and developers) prioritize functionality above all else. Meanwhile the entire discipline of visual design is just not very consistent. There are far too many subjective little rules and exceptions to maintain and they change…

This is exactly the problem. These two things are not at odds. Good design is functional. Good design makes information easy to find and digest. Visual soup is hard to organize and make sense of. Form is a component of function. A knife with another blade instead of a handle can do less cutting, not more. A knife with a contoured handle is easier to wield than one with a flat block handle. These concepts translate we…

If you don't think they're at odds, then you should try your hand at implementing what you think looks good without breaking upstream features. Then try maintaining it indefinitely.

> Visual soup is hard to organize and make sense of.

Initially yes but once you know where things are, having everything be visually distinct can sidestep a lot of unnecessary GUI features (search boxes, configurable views, toolbars, etc.) to overcome the impenetrable and dishonest sameness that comes with "good design". If there's a way to avoid writing more code to maintain, they're going to find it. Why obscure the reality of the underlying logic and data when it just gets in the way of progress towards more functionality?

In a production setting desktop environments are rare anyway and that's where applications are at their most complex. That should be proof enough that visual design isn't functional. You want functional and accessible? That's a simple 1KB config file on a server somewhere that you edit from a terminal instead of an endless sea of GUI menus and a lifetime of wrist and eye issues. The ultimate "contoured handle" is a copy of vim! If you don't see the equivalence then you don't understand how much of an unnecessary and tortured metaphor the desktop really is. It's a concession, not a requirement.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#130

Post by beebeepka »

tormeh wrote: post #106
vlovich123 wrote: post #90

I enabled wayland recently and there’s been a lot of annoyances to the point that I wonder why I bother considering X11 works without these issues. For example: * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Firefox needs extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Xwayland is just broken on Nvidia with both sides refusing to compromise (implicit vs explicit synchronization - Nvidia refuses to add impl…

Using Wayland on NixOS with AMD GPU. I have done exactly nothing to make Wayland work and it has none of this bugs.

But you don't have rtx, peasant!

Seriously though, it's been a while since I've had serious issues with AMD cards on Linux. I was very annoyed with the state of my rx5700 when it first launched back in 2019. We've come a long way

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