Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life • Hacker News Board

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#171

Post by traveler01 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #56

Every morning, I get up at 5, and go for a two-mile walk. Often, my walk coincides with the route of the garbage collection truck. Man, those dudes work hard . It makes my shoulders ache, just watching them. They are fast, energetic, efficient, and precise. Around here, they are generally Latinos, and they have quite high-paying jobs, compared to a lot of their peers. It's a dirty, dangerous job, and the benefits are…

Meanwhile I work hard and I haven't had a vacation in 3 years.

Also my wage sucks too, and I'm a programmer. In my country I believe being in politics would help me way more than working hard. Working hard doesn't help anyone.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#172

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #141

jfrunyon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the millionaire's kid deserve a better shot at success than the plumber's kid?

If the plumber's kid not successful if he goes to school, gets a white collar job and generally lives better than his parents?

I think the point of the question is, that we as a society try to sell the plumber's kid on the idea that everyone gets where they are through hard work and therefore deserves what they have. But the millionaire's kid can coast into a life that the plumber's kid could likely only achieve by incredible luck combined with hard work. In light of that, the idea of the millionaire's kid deserving what they have is called into question.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#173

Post by ARandumGuy » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #93

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

Obviously people should do what they can to improve their situation. If someone is living in poverty, they should do what they can to get out of it.

But we're being fundamentally dishonest if we end the conversation there. People who are born poor have to work much harder to get out of it. Mistakes or misfortune that wouldn't be a big deal for someone in the middle class can be catastrophic for the poor. Ignoring that doesn't help anyone.

The point isn't "what do we teach our children?" The point is "how do we make society better for everyone?" And the individual view does not help with the latter.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#174

Post by bko » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

afpx wrote: post #127

bko wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

Why would it be nihilism? A person's purpose in life doesn't have to be tied to working hard (especially if that strategy has diminishing returns).

I was raised to believe certain truths, such as hard work and sacrifice pays off. It's guided much of my life, from pursuing education, building a career, settling down and starting a family. I couldn't imagine what my life would be if I had believed that I am incapable of changing the circumstances of my being. It would be incredibly hard to live in an arbitrary society. That would likely lead me to the idea of nihilism.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#175

Post by xyzelement » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

Scott Galloway quotes his immigrant dad as saying "America is a hard place to be stupid."

It should be obvious that you need to work hard and work hard on the right thing.

For example you can "work hard" to get a degree which is not valuable and make no economic gain, or you can work hard to get an engineering degree and go from poverty to 1% in a few years.

I met an immigrant Uber driver who had got a janitorial job at a university, because it allowed him to go to business school for free. He worked "as hard" as any other janitor who Ubered on the side, but at the end of it he'll walk away with a Columbia MBA. I am not worried about this guys' ability to become wealthy.

But you do need to use your brain and hustle a bit if you want to go from nothing to something. This is why immigrant can do it - because they come to the US knowing they have to do it.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#176

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #56

Every morning, I get up at 5, and go for a two-mile walk. Often, my walk coincides with the route of the garbage collection truck. Man, those dudes work hard . It makes my shoulders ache, just watching them. They are fast, energetic, efficient, and precise. Around here, they are generally Latinos, and they have quite high-paying jobs, compared to a lot of their peers. It's a dirty, dangerous job, and the benefits are…

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#177

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

LAC-Tech wrote: post #48

> While 65 per cent of the worldwide informed public (aged 25-65, university-educated, in the top 25 per cent of household income) said they trust their institutions, only 51 per cent of the mass public (everyone else, representing 83 per cent of the total global population) said the same. As someone who has gone from a "mass public" background to an "informed public" one, this rings true. I have definitely kept my m…

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#178

Post by wishigotitfree » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

paulluuk wrote: post #98

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

> Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up.

GDP does not correlate to "average wealth" and is itself a dubious measure for economic progress depending on what figures you pick to calculate it.

Also, no matter what metric you use, the "average wealth" of the younger generations, particularly millennials, is not in fact higher than their predecessors. The level of their productivity is a historical high point, but this is infamously contrasted by stagnating wages, assets, and by some metrics even overall quality of life.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#179

Post by trnglina » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

thenaturalist wrote: post #54

optimiz3 wrote: post #21

For those that don't read, this is a global population survey, not an American one. If you're American, surprise - you're much more likely to believe work pays off. Won't stop the parade of people with unsubstantiated statements about how much society sucks despite the frankly marvelous QoL advances over the past several hundred years. Also, total sample size is 500. Globally.

Unsubstantiated.... Hm, your comment implies that this parade of people is deliberately ignoring QoL improvements. I think this is not the case. What's important is to remember that everything is relative. For sure QoL has improved significantly. But so has the relative share of wealth of those who already are wealthy. Look at wealth, not income measures and distribution, let alone how much wealth the richest people…

What is the use of wealth, if not to increase one's quality of life?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#180

Post by thinkingemote » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #140

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #56

Every morning, I get up at 5, and go for a two-mile walk. Often, my walk coincides with the route of the garbage collection truck. Man, those dudes work hard . It makes my shoulders ache, just watching them. They are fast, energetic, efficient, and precise. Around here, they are generally Latinos, and they have quite high-paying jobs, compared to a lot of their peers. It's a dirty, dangerous job, and the benefits are…

This is the first I've heard of tipping trash collectors. Apparently it's a thing? How, logistically, does one even accomplish that?

In the UK traditionally we would tip at Christmas. We would put an envelope with cash on top of the can, or better to catch the bin men in the act.

This was when they used to come onto your property with your own bins, so you saw them more. Now you have to use provided bins and leave them by the kerb so they probably get less.