How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#171

Post by carapace » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #75

RickJWagner wrote: post #69

I'm starting to wonder if we need some formal role for communities in this. Bad cops must be held accountable. But also there must be some way to compel a belligerent person to go along with police (i.e. not resist arrest). Maybe there should be 'community liaisons' or something that would be called out when there is a troublesome situation.

In fairness, part of the idea of using professional cops and not soldiers, was originally that professional cops were from the community and would be better able to interact, or "liaise" with community members. It's just that over the centuries we kind of forgot about that part. In the US we moved to the current system where many of the police may not even live in the communities they serve. Heck, they may not even l…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

> The Peelian principles summarise the ideas that Sir Robert Peel developed to define an ethical police force. The approach expressed in these principles is commonly known as policing by consent in the United Kingdom and other countries including Canada, Australia and New Zealand.[1][2][3][4]

> In this model of policing, police officers are regarded as citizens in uniform. They exercise their powers to police their fellow citizens with the implicit consent of those fellow citizens. "Policing by consent" indicates that the legitimacy of policing in the eyes of the public is based upon a general consensus of support that follows from transparency about their powers, their integrity in exercising those powers and their accountability for doing so.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#172

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

da39a3ee wrote: post #112

dm319 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, underfunding education is the real root of the problem as it hampers the democratic process later on.

I would love to see better funding for education everywhere, But, no, that's not the real root of the problem. To see the real root of the problem, compare the USA to other western democracies such as in Europe. The structure of society is very different, the nature of poverty, the number of people living as an economic underclass, the acceptance in the USA that poor areas of cities will just be fucked and that's nor…

"the acceptance in the USA that poor areas of cities will just be fucked and that's normal"

This is certainly not limited to the USA and you will readily find it in European democracies as well. A significant portion of French people have long since assumed that the banlieues are hopeless and there is little sense trying to improve them. In Eastern Europe you will find the same attitudes about Roma neighborhoods. Even in the Nordic countries which are held up as models of social equality, one finds the genesis of immigrant-heavy neighborhoods that, local people tell themselves, will forever have the problems that immigrant-heavy neighborhoods stereotypically have.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#173

Post by briefcomment » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #167

briefcomment wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both your claim and the parent's claim are equally shocking, and the evidence for both is hearsay from someone who lives on the street. How do we know who is being sincere, who is pushing an agenda, who is mistaken, who is experiencing cognitive dissonance, etc.

The history of police being bastards towards protestors? If you think you have no way of establishing priors you aren't examining the facts.

Of course there is that history. But there are also people who paint the police in an unwarrantedly bad light. People tend to forget that humans are overwhelmingly cooperative and good. Society would not be as stable as it is if people were as consistently bad as some people make them out to be. There are ideologies misrepresenting reality on both sides of this situation. It's so hard to concretely say anything in these situations without examining all the context available.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#174

Post by tehwebguy » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #113

dessant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even need to leave your porch to get shot. Police and National Guard are patrolling neighborhoods and shooting civilians with paint canisters on their own property in Minneapolis. In one case they yelled "Light 'em up!" before starting to shoot [1] with ammunition that could blind people. It's legal to be outside your house during the curfew in Minneapolis [2]. > Can I be outside my house (on my property) a…

I’m a local. Here’s some additional context: “Follow up on video of people getting rubber bullets shot at them in their doorway from a source that was there. This was personally texted to me. Source is a teacher that works at my elementary school. Here’s what was posted. ‘That is my blue house across the street. Apparently this video has gone viral. What they didn’t show was the 20- 30 minutes of the rioters that sur…

If the upstairs neighbor didn’t even know there were rioters nearby there weren’t lmao.

Screaming isn’t rioting.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#175

Post by tehwebguy » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #173

danharaj wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of police being bastards towards protestors? If you think you have no way of establishing priors you aren't examining the facts.

Of course there is that history. But there are also people who paint the police in an unwarrantedly bad light. People tend to forget that humans are overwhelmingly cooperative and good. Society would not be as stable as it is if people were as consistently bad as some people make them out to be. There are ideologies misrepresenting reality on both sides of this situation. It's so hard to concretely say anything in th…

It’s not a difference of ideologies: one class of people can almost always murder with impunity and the other class of people can’t.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#176

Post by scarface74 » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #173

danharaj wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of police being bastards towards protestors? If you think you have no way of establishing priors you aren't examining the facts.

Of course there is that history. But there are also people who paint the police in an unwarrantedly bad light. People tend to forget that humans are overwhelmingly cooperative and good. Society would not be as stable as it is if people were as consistently bad as some people make them out to be. There are ideologies misrepresenting reality on both sides of this situation. It's so hard to concretely say anything in th…

Well, if the police are overwhelmingly good, where are the representatives of the police unions that are condemning the “few bad apples” that are killing unarmed Black people?

Where are all of the “good policemen” who are saying racial profiling during “stop and frisk” is wrong.

If they are complicit and silent they are not “good”.

And I bet you have never been thought of as “suspicious” for walking from your house down the street to your mailbox.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#177

Post by scarface74 » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #160

bsanr2 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't pass the sniff test. If they were rioters, they would likely not be rioting on their own porch. Hence, ordering them to go inside would mean breaking into someone else's house. On the other hand, if they're legitimately on their own proerty, and if they're not being disorderly, then what is the rationale for that use of force? I hate to say it, but I'm doubting the veracity of this account. There's nothi…

I’m not disagreeing with anyone about the inappropriateness of the police actions, but the account is not claiming that those shot in the video are rioters. Simply that the police we see were actively clearing rioters from the neighborhood and the porch people were caught up in it.

So that makes it a lot better that police made a mistake and did it.....

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#178

Post by briefcomment » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

tehwebguy wrote: post #175

briefcomment wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there is that history. But there are also people who paint the police in an unwarrantedly bad light. People tend to forget that humans are overwhelmingly cooperative and good. Society would not be as stable as it is if people were as consistently bad as some people make them out to be. There are ideologies misrepresenting reality on both sides of this situation. It's so hard to concretely say anything in th…

It’s not a difference of ideologies: one class of people can almost always murder with impunity and the other class of people can’t.

Does that mean we take away the benefit of the doubt for an entire class of people as soon as one person cries foul?

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#179

Post by tehwebguy » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #178

tehwebguy wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a difference of ideologies: one class of people can almost always murder with impunity and the other class of people can’t.

Does that mean we take away the benefit of the doubt for an entire class of people as soon as one person cries foul?

Yes! Now we are making progress.

Police do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, ever, when they are working in their official capacity. They should have to bring proof.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#180

Post by sophacles » Sun, May 31, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

xphilter wrote: post #141

sethammons wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s where you missed it: it is not reasonable to give unlawful orders, it is not reasonable to order someone on private property to go inside. They can request folks to go inside. They cannot order it until their powers are elevated by law. Might doesn’t make right.

I agree; but it is possible to have a lawful order to control someone on private property. An example was the Boston bombing manhunt where police were doing door to door searches because there was a specific, articulated threat in a defined geographic area (note, I don’t know that’s the real legal test, but I’m sure it considers factors like that).

So your argument is that "different situations are different situations?" That is a solid justification for any action in this situation!