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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#171

Post by mjibson »

tbirdz wrote: post #107
skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

>Rob is right that role models are important. I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, softwa…

> Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field?

Rob's entire piece is about how a group of women in a highly technical field were influenced by role models. And we're still denying these women's responses?

Re: The power of role models

#172

Post by brennen »

pjc50 wrote: post #112
ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

Like AA, first you have to admit you have a problem. (Not you personally, but there are plenty of people who claim it's just the natural order of things.) The profession does not conduct exit interviews, but fortunately every few weeks someone will write a blog post on why they (a women) left computer science. These articles may be posted to HN, where they often get a skeptical to hostile reception. Harrasment is the…

Yeah.

As I've asserted a few comments over, there's an ample body of detailed, firsthand observation available to men who are sincerely interested in the problem. It's also possible for us to talk to women who work in the field and listen as they describe their experiences. The existing gender imbalance, routine discrimination in hiring and promotion, rampant harassment, and profoundly toxic social dynamics are all recurring themes.

I don't seem to meet a lot of women who feel that there is a dearth of evidence about any of this.

Meanwhile: This embarrassing trainwreck of a thread, ad infinitum.

Re: The power of role models

#173

Post by gaius »

throwaway399 wrote: post #125
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you disagree with Pike's implied priors, do so directly; don't huff about how logic that starts from a different set of premises to yours ends at a bad place when you swap the premises out from under it. One very simple, coherent way to arrive at Pike's position without sacrificing the notion of merit is to accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being su…

>very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being suited to men There are a bunch of other professions where women are under/over-represented. CS is one of them. Others include: Mechanical Engineering Construction Electrical Engineering Physics Aerospace Engi Geography Finance On the other hand, in Biology things are a lot more balanced. So maybe it is the field of interest as opposed t…

Loggers, refuse collectors, meatpackers, miners etc etc are also disproportionately male.

Re: The power of role models

#174

Post by notamy »

projektir wrote: post #91
notamy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not gp commenter, but I think the point is that while yes, having more women (or for a different discussion) would be a good thing, they shouldn't simply be put into these positions by virtue of the "minority" (quoted for lack of a better word) traits ALONE. Rather, would it not be better to have people with who are incredibly competent / qualified / etc. who would be a better role model to those with who want to get…

Incredibly competent is a very high bar to place on a group of people that already has trouble breaking in. That seems like a very good way to keep that group out. I think we already have this problem: it sometimes seems like nobody really wants women unless they are insanely competent. I'm sorry, that's not how it works. You don't get to keep a giant population down and then just extract the occasional diamonds and…

Alright, I just wanna say that, as a college student, I probably have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, so take it with a truckload of salt :)

That being said, I do agree with what you say. I was guessing at what the (ggg)gp comment meant. I'm sure I could have worded it better, but I don't have much experience with any of this. Seriously, thank you for explaining it to me.

Re: The power of role models

#175

Post by alphapapa »

An interesting analogy: a workplace or professional field is like a jar of water. Injustice is like tinted water (injustice being hiring or promoting someone less qualified at the expense of someone more qualified). Some blue-tinted water has been added to the jar. There are two proposed solutions to fix the problem:

1. Add red-tinted water to the jar to counter-balance the existing blue-tinted water in the jar.

2. Add more clean water to the jar to dilute the blue-tinted water.

Question: Which solution would result in clearer water?

Re: The power of role models

#176

Post by Fishman343 »

stale2002 wrote: post #162
superioritycplx wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be literally free to learn programming if you're a woman. Girls Who Code, countless initiatives, you name it, it's there. Yet if you check contributors of any open source project it's going to be all men. What if most women are just... not that interested in programming?

You have the pipeline problem backwards. The women in tech pipeline is a leaky, toxic pipeline that results in talented women being driven out of the industry. Of course many women are not that interested in programming. This is obviously true. Because the women who DO get into programming are quickly driven out by the toxic culture. If I were a woman I wouldn't want to be in the tech industry either. It is a waste o…

Is there any way to actually measure this? Not the bounce rate of women leaving, but the reasons they do. You say it's the 'toxic culture' but is there any metric to measure it?

We need some sort of exit poll data for people leaving the tech industry if that exists. We've seen the data for women giving up after receiving fewer rejections than men, but to my knowledge any accusations of toxicity are purely anecdotal.

Re: The power of role models

#177

Post by stale2002 »

alphapapa wrote: post #163
stale2002 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. We need to be meritocratic. And the current world that we live in is NOT meritocratic, as half of the good talent is getting driven out of the industry. The way to promote meritocracy IS to support women. Anti diversity initiatives and environments are unmeritocratic.

Imagine a company which exists entirely online: no physical office, all employees work from home over the Internet. Imagine that all employees and managers and executives use gender-ambiguous screennames, and no one is allowed to ask any questions which would reveal identity, gender, etc. (Perhaps there's a small HR department that handles the real identities, but it's not allowed to share them with anyone else, nor…

This would be much more meritocratic than our current system. And it would result in much better diversity.

You don't even have to be as extreme as your example (nobody could work in the conditions that you mentioned).

Things like blind resume screening have been shown to significantly reduce hiring bias, and more companies should be doing it.

Also, the biggest discrimination problems in tech aren't even direct hiring discrimination problems. One big reason why companies are not very diverse is that companies tell their employees "refer your friends!" and then they are surprised when the white men only refer other white men.

Making efforts to specifically reach out to women, and making sure they apply to your company (without lowering any bars or anything), work very well in increasing diversity.

Re: The power of role models

#178

Post by SwellJoe »

Oxitendwe wrote: post #132
SwellJoe wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. You're assuming women aren't currently at a disadvantage in that selection process. Which, evidence indicates they are. So...leveling the playing field is not disadvantaging others at the expense of women. It is recognizing…

>Your argument is essentially that there are almost no women talented enough to be in leadership roles in tech This is wrong. There are plenty. My point is that these people should not be given special treatment and more opportunities if they come at the expense of other demographics. >I'm not suggesting quotas here, and I don't think Pike is either He didn't mention quotas, but he did mention preferential hiring. "I…

Given the current bias our industry holds toward men, it will require people to give women (and people of color) the benefit of the doubt more often when making hiring or promoting decisions. If our biases favor some kinds of people, our "objective" assessment of people's abilities will not actually be objective, and we have to self-correct in some way. Intentionally giving a female candidate another look, or giving her a chance in the role, is likely a necessary step toward correcting those biases.

How would you feel if you applied for a job and it was given to someone else because they were a woman?

Probably not much different than women feel every day when passed over for a job they're similarly or better qualified for by a man. It sucks to lose an opportunity that you wanted, but the industry will be healthier for it.

Would this practice applied in aggregate not chase off even more talented people?

Our industry chases off, or under-utilizes by not promoting to their level of greatest impact, talented women every day. Evening that imbalance out is not unfair to men.

Re: The power of role models

#179

Post by skookumchuck »

SwellJoe wrote: post #170
skookumchuck wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are free to start a VC fund. Nobody is stopping them. As I said, there are plenty of women with money. Furthermore, VC funds are hardly the only source of funding. Friends and family are traditional sources of startup capital, and loaning money to businesses is a traditional business for banks.

> Friends and family are traditional sources of startup capital, and loaning money to businesses is a traditional business for banks. Have you ever founded a tech startup funded exclusively by friends and family? Have you ever tried to get a loan from a bank for a tech startup?

> friends and family?

Yes. Started my tech company with a 4 figure loan from a family member. Am now independently wealthy. I was told I would fail every step of the way from just about everyone.

> bank

No. Never needed to. Never needed any other outside capital.

My aunt got a loan from a bank to start her own successful business. (She was told that women couldn't get loans to start businesses. She was quite a firecracker.)

Re: The power of role models

#180

Post by watwut »

tbirdz wrote: post #107
skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

>Rob is right that role models are important. I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, softwa…

I live in fairly conservative country, but little kids here really tend to have very strict ideas about what is supposed to be for boys and what is for girls. Meaning they wont even look that way if they think the device/occupation is mean for other gender. I think that is why girls played with legos much less until the company started to frame certain series in girly colors (series becoming instant success).

Anecdotally, it had impact on me when I was young. Female detectives in detective stories made the idea of me becoming a cop seem socially acceptable and not a feminist statement. Did not became a cop, but I remember thinking "cool that means me doing that would not be weird" at the time.

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