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The power of role models

commandcenter.blogspot.com

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Re: The power of role models

#101
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it not his entire point that these people should be given an advantage? What else do you think it means to be "pushed into positions of influence"?

I think it means that due to existing biases, the role models, promoted people, etc. are biased towards men and women, and therefore by definition include some number of men less qualified than women who could potentially have those roles. We need to push back on these biases, which means that we need to push women into roles where they are qualified, and push out unqualified men as a result. It's harsh, but if we wa…

Do you believe the vast physical differences between men and women end at the brainstem? Do you believe the flood of sex hormones during puberty don't result in different mental tendencies, including tolerances to rejection? Do you believe the different ratios of neurotransmitters between men and women across all cultures and haplogroups are a result of culture?

Before we explicitly institutionalize discrimination against men and boys to correct nebulous discrimination against women and girls, we must really make sure:

1. We aren't ignoring potential opportunity costs

2. We are okay with the fact that our policies will hurt disadvantaged men and boys the most

Re: The power of role models

#102
post #74

Is 'diversity' selfish? Perhaps women/teenage girls aren't interested in becoming programmers, because they don't find it to be an interesting or fulfilling career.

> they don't find it to be an interesting or fulfilling career.

Even if true, the reasons for it might be interesting.

Re: The power of role models

#103
post #69

I never hear people speak about fixing the nursing gender gap....

Do you often talk to nurses or folk in the nursing field? It's actually a significant issue with several scholarships and organizations pushing for more diversity in nursing and making up for the gender gap.

Re: The power of role models

#104

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

I think it might be valuable to reflect on why your immediate reaction to "push them into positions of influence" is to think that women are unqualified to be there and they must be receiving "special advantage" if they are.

Fatass, learn to read. How much brain damage do you have to not comprehend simple text?

Re: The power of role models

#105
post #71

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

If you disagree with Pike's implied priors, do so directly; don't huff about how logic that starts from a different set of premises to yours ends at a bad place when you swap the premises out from under it. One very simple, coherent way to arrive at Pike's position without sacrificing the notion of merit is to accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being su…

> accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being suited to men

To be fair, the gender gap is present in many engineering professions, computer science is in no way unique here.

Re: The power of role models

#106

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

This is antithetical to everything most people believe about fairness and equality

If you're going to make a wide-reaching claim like that, please back it up. Or narrow the claim by making it anecdotal. My experience is quite the opposite. I, my friends, and most of my co-workers can see the very clear disenfranchisement suffered by women and believe work must be done to counter it.

These are zero sum games

That's not clear at all. Let's take a small example. Imagine the Go community lacks influential thought leaders of the female gender (I have no clue if this is the case). Now imagine they seek to address this by urging respected but below-the-surface women to write more blog posts, attend more meetings. Who exactly suffers? You don't think we can find more chairs in the meeting room? Is the blog going to fill up?

None of this is even mentioning the basic question of, what do we even get out of trying to "correct" disparities in employment demographics

He was pretty clear about that actually. He started with it. He said he felt, but could not prove, the high quality of his experience had to do with the diversity of the members of that community. It's fine to challenge that idea, but don't pretend like it wasn't discussed.

what of the girls who learn that their role models have been given a handicap

When I tell my kids to go out of their way to be friends with a kid who seems lonely, they fundamentally get why. They don't have these delusions that everyone starts at an equal footing and that the status quo reflects everyone getting what they deserve.

Re: The power of role models

#107

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

>Rob is right that role models are important.

I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field?

I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, software, technology for its own sake, and never really paid too much attention to the people behind the scenes. I don't recall any particular person who I saw in programming and thought "I want to be like them", or thought of as a role model.

I suppose this could have happened on a subconscious level, when I was unaware of it. But at least on a conscious level I can't point out any particular individual who I viewed as a role model and inspired me to continue in the field.

Is there anyone else who never had a role-model type relationship with someone? And for those who have experienced it, would you mind sharing a story about a significant role model in programming from your life?

Re: The power of role models

#108
The problem isn't gender per se; the problem is how we define success and how leadership works. We're up to our neck in all sort of hubris sprung from the cultural emphasis on ambition at any cost. As Charlie Sheen might say, "Winning."[1]

[1] if you don't see his story as a parody, intentional or otherwise, look again...

But if diversity is your yardstick, then it's surprising how much better the military services are at it than tech. Indeed, if I were an ambitious woman, I am not sure that's not the path to take for tech.

Re: The power of role models

#110

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

I see where you're coming from, and I think we reach different conclusions because you see merit as a much more readily judged quantity than I do.

I wholeheartedly agree, elevating people above the level of responsibility/work they can handle is a bad idea, as is taking away responsibility from more qualified people.

Where you run into trouble is the people judging qualifications. Human judgment is an insanely noisy tool that heavily weights a bunch of stuff with no actual effect. For a stupid example, look at the earning difference between tall men and taller men -- it's about $800/yr/inch [1]. The effects of gender, race, and apparent country of origin (eg "foreign sounding" names) are all larger and equally useless in actually predicting job performance.

I'm not saying hire dim women over bright men. As I see it, the claim is that there are often many candidates who are equally "qualified" within our margin of error, and in those situations it's wise to pick the disadvantaged candidate because A) your flawed human judgement's probably lying to you ie they're more qualified than you think and B) if they are truly equal, elevating them will help encourage the next generation of candidates with their background, as TFA suggests. We can argue whether such a strategy will discourage the advantaged group's next generation in an equal and opposite manner, but I suspect the effect is strongly net positive on the size / quality of the labor pool.

Lastly, I realize I've made this comment quite narrowly focused on a hypothetical "hiring" scenario with a single human arbiter, but I hope HN can extrapolate the ideas to other choices we make as a society.

1: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/the-fin...

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