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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#91
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I mean, you took two paragraphs to write "I disagree", but you forgot the ", because".

Not gp commenter, but I think the point is that while yes, having more women (or for a different discussion) would be a good thing, they shouldn't simply be put into these positions by virtue of the "minority" (quoted for lack of a better word) traits ALONE. Rather, would it not be better to have people with who are incredibly competent / qualified / etc. who would be a better role model to those with who want to get…

Incredibly competent is a very high bar to place on a group of people that already has trouble breaking in. That seems like a very good way to keep that group out. I think we already have this problem: it sometimes seems like nobody really wants women unless they are insanely competent.

I'm sorry, that's not how it works. You don't get to keep a giant population down and then just extract the occasional diamonds and ignore the rest. You need to pull the entire thing if you want those diamonds to be created.

> they shouldn't simply be put into these positions by virtue of the "minority" (quoted for lack of a better word) traits ALONE

Why do people always state this as if it's the only possible reality? You go from "on minority basis ALONE" to "incredibly competent" in one fell swoop.

I seriously hope you don't have people in your organization that are so incompetent that the only reason you could think of promoting them is because they're in an underprivileged group. Because otherwise, your statement doesn't make any sense. It's like you are already signing up for a reality where members of underprivileged group cannot possibly be the kinds of members you'd very much want to have.

That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that among the group of cool people that you have in your organization, maybe notice the women sometimes. And don't expect them to be "incredibly competent". Just competent enough. The same way you treat everyone else.

Re: The power of role models

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

There have been plenty of such studies. There is no "exodus", the industry has been dominated by men for a long time. It doesn't change because at each stage of the educational pipeline where women could make a choice that takes them towards software/hardware, a chunk of them drop out, until you get the ratios in the job you get today which are more or less similar to the ratios that graduate with CS degrees. They dr…

That is not an accurate representation of the research. See this public summary of a (sadly, paywalled) HBR paper on the subject [https://hbr.org/2016/08/why-do-so-many-women-who-study-engin...]. At every stage of the educational pipeline, a chunk of women do indeed drop out. The cause, however, is often an encounter with sexist culture along the way.

The subject of insecurity does come up:

> Throughout college, men and women succeeded equally in the classroom. However, we observed that women started to doubt their problem-solving abilities more than men. [...skipping long illustrating quote]. Women were also much more likely to look to others—teaching assistants, professors, and advisors—to affirm, and reaffirm, their confidence. Men did talk about doubting themselves, but they did not necessarily seek reassurance from others. We found that this search for positive cues carried over into expectations for feedback from supervisors in internships and jobs."

However, it is not at all the only phenomenon at play. More discouraging is the gendered treatment they receive from professors and, more importantly, colleagues.

> For many women engineering students, however, their first encounter with collaboration is to be treated in gender stereotypical ways, mostly by their peers. While some initially described working in teams positively, many more reported negative experiences. When working with male classmates, for example, they often spoke of being relegated to doing routine managerial and secretarial jobs, and of being excluded from the “real” engineering work. Kimberly wrote, “Two girls in a group had been working on the robot we were building in that class for hours, and the guys in their group came back in and within minutes had sentenced them to doing menial tasks while the guys went and had all the fun in the machine shop.”

> There were also descriptions of being treated differently by professors. Rachel described when her team (the only all-girl team) won second place in a design competition: “Our professor wanted to get a picture of our prototype and us. We picked up our prototype and were all smiling and looking all professional; then he said: ‘You guys look like professional catalog models; this picture could go in a catalog and you could sell big time.’”

> Men, on the other hand, described mandatory group design projects as exciting turning points, where theory and practice come together. “I made a pretty big stroke of progress last week,” one student wrote in his semi-monthly diary, “I ended up proving the professor wrong on something she had done last year, which actually helped us find better results (well, also more correct results)… It’s really a blast working on something like that.”

Anyway, there are more quotes available, if you want to look at it yourself.

Note also that there is one other factor they address that isn't related to sexism in the field (but perhaps to broader sexist acculturation in society) - women are more likely to want to work somewhere that is "contributing to society". Part of what's going on here is that it's not considered quite as socially acceptable for women to be ambitious for ambition's sake, at least not in the way that it is for men. But I don't think that's something that the engineering culture enforces, I think that's something that's internalized.

Re: The power of role models

#93
post #69

I never hear people speak about fixing the nursing gender gap....

The first result when I googled "gender gap in nursing"[1] talks about how men in nursing earn more money and tend to move up the career ladder faster than women. If women in tech were consistently paid more and promoted faster than their male counterparts, I don't think we would see the same hand-wringing about diversity in our field either.

[1] https://www.nurse.com/blog/2015/08/10/nurses-speak-out-about...

Re: The power of role models

#94

> It may take proactive behavior, like choosing a women over a man when growing your team, just because, or promoting women more freely. 'Just because' what? You're asking for 'more women excelling in the field' but promoting somebody just because isn't going to make them excel. If, on the other hand, brilliant women were not being promoted 'just because' that would suggest a problem. But is this so?

Most of the people I've worked with who have been given promotions have been given promotions "just because," i.e., they've been there for a while, they seem to do good work, and more work needs to be done.

See also McKinsey's finding: "Several diversity officers and experts told us that despite their best efforts, women are often evaluated for promotions primarily on performance, while men are often promoted on potential." https://www.mckinsey.com/womenineconomy (PDF)

Re: The power of role models

#95
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

I don't mean this to sound overly harsh, but I think treating this situation as some sort of mystery is part of the problem. All that one really needs to do to understand why the field is unwelcoming to women is to start listening to women .

The exodus of women from computing began in the 80s due to the rise of the personal computer. It wasn't because people weren't listening to women.

Trivialization of women's issues is a different monster.

Re: The power of role models

#96

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

> And what of the girls who learn that their role models have been given a handicap, pushed upwards beyond their skill by well-meaning but naive men? Proponents of affirmative-action policies argue that the handicap offsets disabilities from the glass ceiling, discrimination / stereotype threat in the workplace/education pipeline. The calculus of what "balances out inequality" is imperfect, but arguably better than j…

>proponents of affirmative-action policies argue that the handicap offsets disabilities from the glass ceiling, discrimination / stereotype threat in the workplace/education pipeline.

How do you know that the disparity in women in the general population versus women in computer science is caused by the things you mentioned? How do you know that they have an equal interest and potential in this field than demographics who do not need special treatment? Will the value that these people provide be greater than what is expended to advantage them over other demographics who do not need special treatment? These are very serious and important questions you should be asking yourself when you decide to advantage certain people over others. I don't believe they have been answered.

Re: The power of role models

#97
post #74

Is 'diversity' selfish? Perhaps women/teenage girls aren't interested in becoming programmers, because they don't find it to be an interesting or fulfilling career.

As anecdata, one daughter felt that pursuing computing wasn't socially acceptable ( she was a cheerleader and all ) and another felt the first instructor was an abject misogynist.

Perhaps women find better things to do :) I'm starting to think there is something wrong with those of us who pursue this.

Re: The power of role models

#98
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it might be valuable to reflect on why your immediate reaction to "push them into positions of influence" is to think that women are unqualified to be there and they must be receiving "special advantage" if they are.

Doesn't the original text imply just that?

No.

Re: The power of role models

#99
post #71

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

If you disagree with Pike's implied priors, do so directly; don't huff about how logic that starts from a different set of premises to yours ends at a bad place when you swap the premises out from under it. One very simple, coherent way to arrive at Pike's position without sacrificing the notion of merit is to accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being su…

Hey 400 lbs man, please please for the love of god, get off this side and go the gym. You are wasting everyone valuable timing from your pussified comments and white-knighting. You will do us a big favor by going to the gym and not having us pay through your medical bill through medicare when you stop working.

Re: The power of role models

#100

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

>I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another.

You're assuming women aren't currently at a disadvantage in that selection process. Which, evidence indicates they are. So...leveling the playing field is not disadvantaging others at the expense of women. It is recognizing that our current culture has biases that need to be corrected for.

Your argument is essentially that there are almost no women talented enough to be in leadership roles in tech, if they were chosen fairly; because that's the situation we are currently in. I'm not suggesting quotas here, and I don't think Pike is either, but there's clearly a bunch of broken segments in the path to advancement for women in tech. We're chasing off talented people because they're women (and minorities), whether we mean to or not. Acknowledging that deficit (on our part, as members of the tech community who aren't subject to those biases) is not unfair or a zero sum game.

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