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The power of role models

commandcenter.blogspot.com

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Re: The power of role models

#61

Post by stale2002 »

zigzigzag wrote: post #48
skrebbel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I mean, you took two paragraphs to write "I disagree", but you forgot the ", because".

, because ... it's obvious. Promoting incompetent people because they have a vagina is not a policy that will promote harmony between the genders, nor will it magically make meetings vaguely better. It will however lead to resentment and distrust amongst men, who will always wonder if their female boss got where she did by being good, or simply by being a woman.

The status quo is the opposite. Incompetent men are getting promoted because women are getting driven out of the industry.

I agree with making the industry more meritocratic. And the way to do this is to support diversity efforts, and stop promoting incompetent men.

Re: The power of role models

#62

Post by zigzigzag »

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37
skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

There have been plenty of such studies. There is no "exodus", the industry has been dominated by men for a long time. It doesn't change because at each stage of the educational pipeline where women could make a choice that takes them towards software/hardware, a chunk of them drop out, until you get the ratios in the job you get today which are more or less similar to the ratios that graduate with CS degrees.

They drop out partly because, inconvenient though it is to admit this, they tend to get discouraged more easily. There are stats showing that women stop searching for software jobs after X rejections, men after Y (on average), and that Y > X. Google found that women were getting promoted less than men simply because they weren't putting themselves forward for promotion as often. That pattern crops up again and again - women hold back when they could push forward.

Re: The power of role models

#63

Post by tptacek »

zigzigzag wrote: post #43
hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

Pike is arguing the opposite - that computing should become less meritocratic. Hence promoting women "just because". I think I'll continue to promote people who seem to do good work, regardless of their gender. If some women lose interest in computing because they lack role models, too bad for them: there are plenty of female programmers in eastern Europe and Russia who don't seem to care.

No, the fact that Pike doesn't accept the same premises you do about the nature of merit in the technology industry doesn't mean that he believes tech should become less meritocratic. A different set of priors creates a condition where gender parity results in more meritocracy.

Re: The power of role models

#64

Post by factsaresacred »

> It may take proactive behavior, like choosing a women over a man when growing your team, just because, or promoting women more freely.

'Just because' what? You're asking for 'more women excelling in the field' but promoting somebody just because isn't going to make them excel.

If, on the other hand, brilliant women were not being promoted 'just because' that would suggest a problem. But is this so?

Re: The power of role models

#66

Post by skookumchuck »

The article suggests that power in computing is something men have to give. It isn't. Computing is a market based economy. Anyone can start a computing company, and run it as they please.

I.e. women can start computing companies, and hire women. Women do not need permission from men to do this, nor do they need favor from men.

Re: The power of role models

#67

Post by brennen »

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37
skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

I don't mean this to sound overly harsh, but I think treating this situation as some sort of mystery is part of the problem.

All that one really needs to do to understand why the field is unwelcoming to women is to start listening to women.

Re: The power of role models

#68

Post by digi_owl »

skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

It seems that as thing got more business-oriented, it has become more fashionable. And in the process pushing out all but the most thick skinned and loud.

Re: The power of role models

#70

Post by stale2002 »

Tarq0n wrote: post #56
4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Can you supply a realistic alternative to affirmative action that would make it unnecessary?

Things like blind interviews and blind resume screening at the initial stage of the interview have shown to reduce bias.

Also, specifically making efforts to reach out to women, and get them to apply to your company, work. (don't lower the bar! Just increase your pipeline)

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