The power of role models • Hacker News Board

Re: The power of role models

#21

Post by trentnix » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

jordanlev wrote: post #8

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

What if we start from an assumption though that things are currently not meritocrous? Doesn't that then imply if we want to get to a place of full meritocracy some things need to be done that are different than the status quo?

I would assume that the solution wouldn't be to double down on bias hoping that bias in the opposite direction will somehow result in harmony. That's like a cable news network letting polemics on opposite sides of an issue (as if there are only to ways to look at an issue in the first place) scream at each other for a segment and then patting themselves on the back for their "balance". After all, they "presented both sides"!

If some organization isn't meritocrous in how it promotes people and participation, the solution is to make it so. And it will take time for the effects of the previous bias to unwind.

Re: The power of role models

#22

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

Well, the trouble with that, we would be asked to believe, is that we all have unconscious biases that lead us to recruit / promote people who are more like ourselves.

In my experience this does seem to be the case.

Re: The power of role models

#23

Post by senthil_rajasek » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

Diversity is a social issue. Meritocracy is not a good tool to fix social issues.

Re: The power of role models

#24

Post by Oxitendwe » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence.

I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical to everything most people believe about fairness and equality. And what of the girls who learn that their role models have been given a handicap, pushed upwards beyond their skill by well-meaning but naive men? What sort of message will that send to them?

None of this is even mentioning the basic question of, what do we even get out of trying to "correct" disparities in employment demographics? How do we even know that women as a demographic have an equal interest in computer science to men? If they don't, what do we get out of "correcting" the disparity by given them special treatment, handicaps, incentives, etc?

Pushing people into positions of influence based on their gender is nothing other than deeply sexist, discriminatory to people who don't need to be pushed, and should be absolutely unacceptable to anyone who actually cares about equality.

Re: The power of role models

#25

Post by geofft » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

Absent a reason to believe that there should be more well-known men in computing than women, we have quite a distance to go to achieve a meritocracy.

I haven't heard any plausible theories for this. The best I've heard is plausible theories for why, given existing biases in society, more men are entering and succeeding in the field than women. That's usually used to argue that some individual company or process isn't at fault for having an imbalanced output. But that's hardly a meritocracy when you know you're leaving qualified people behind, neither for the company, nor at all for the field as a whole!

(Incidentally, the term "meritocracy" is from a dystopian essay trying to satirize the concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy )

Re: The power of role models

#26

Post by notamy » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #10

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Why? I mean, you took two paragraphs to write "I disagree", but you forgot the ", because".

Not gp commenter, but I think the point is that while yes, having more women (or for a different discussion) would be a good thing, they shouldn't simply be put into these positions by virtue of the "minority" (quoted for lack of a better word) traits ALONE. Rather, would it not be better to have people with who are incredibly competent / qualified / etc. who would be a better role model to those with who want to get into the field?

Re: The power of role models

#27

Post by jfaucett » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

bitexploder wrote: post #11

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

This is an interesting area sort of like affirmative action. If we don't cede some ground to the notion meritocracy, might that not delay the length of time it takes to increase diversity in the field? Will this create the best possible computing and technology world possible -- cutting out or limiting half the population? That is the point Rob is subtly making. We may have to trade a little merit now for increased d…

What is the point of diversity? You're just drawing arbitrary lines based on skin color or gender or sexual orientation. If you drew those lines somewhere else say, favorite color/food, political affiliation, mathematical abilities, etc. you'd have a completely different categorization. This is why a meritocracy is so important. There is no smaller minority group than the individual, basing outcomes on anything else is inherently arbitrarily discriminatory.

Re: The power of role models

#28

Post by Kenji » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

Imagine if someone wrote a text like that about males. Imagine someone would point out how incredibly respectful and professional florist meetings are if there is a larger than usual percentage of men. They'd be lynched, called misogynists and sexists.

I deeply resent everyone who contributes to this petty fight among the genders.

Re: The power of role models

#29

Post by RodericDay » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

> In my long career, I had never before been in a room like that, and the difference in tone, conversation, respect, and professionalism was unlike any I have experienced. I can't prove it was the presence of women that made the difference - it could just be that astronomers are better people all around, a possibility I cannot really refute - but it seemed to me that the difference stemmed from the demographics.

I feel exactly the same way. After undergrad, I assembled a board game group with my male friends. Some girls (girlfriends, invited drop-ins) became regulars, and for a long while, the group was pretty much 50/50. It had never been so good.

Eventually some things happened, people moved away, and eventually the group became 100% male, nerdy guys. It was a pale shadow of its own self. I eventually lost interest in it altogether, and we get together very infrequently now.

It had nothing to do with dating or romance. I never bothered figuring exactly what it was that made the group better. As far as I'm concerned, diversity for the sake of diversity is a noble goal.

Many other professional and educational anecdotes contribute to this last belief, not just this board game example, but it is representative.

Re: The power of role models

#30

Post by sho_hn » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

People who raise their index finger to lament that, in the best of cases, do it speaking from a place of confidence that in a meritocratic system they are securely competitive. It's a little bit about where that confidence comes from and why not everyone enjoys that confidence.